How many women (or men) identify as cisgender?

[hallouminatus]

On another forum, I said "Most women don't identify as cisgender, and many feel that describing them as such is disrespectful". Someone has asked me for evidence of this. I think it's probably true, but I haven't seen any statistics or even estimates of numbers. I'm interested in any evidence or arguments which would either support or refute my statement.

I am not a cis-woman. There is no such thing. I am a woman, because I am an adult human female.

If anyone called me a cis-woman I would ask them what they meant. I know it's the recently made-up term for a woman, invented by people trying to empty the word "woman" of meaning. But I would let them try to idiotically talk their way round what the hell they meant.

For the same reasons stated above, I am not cisgender. That's another dishonest word made up by people trying to pretend they can change sex. I am a woman because I was born a human female.

most women do not know or care what cis gender is. We are just women, we use ladies loos we shop in the women's section. What the hell is cis?

I think that was on Corrie, peak2021

Nope. Never will be. I'm a woman. Adult human female.

Definitely just a woman. Reject Cis completely.

I think there's a major issue in that a lot of diversity trainers and T advocates present it to men and women with no previous interest or knowledge of these issues as "it just means that you're not trans". They are completely baffled by any resistance to being described as cis and instinctively tend to think that the lgbt+ lobby - being soooo oppressed - are the ones they should side with. Some men in particular are very ready to assume it's women who would be in the wrong.

Cis is NOT the antonym of trans in this field[…]

I disagree with your interpretation.

But both imply identification with cultural and social expectations of a gender. This is the part that many (most?) people on this forum find mystifying.

I am aware most users of this subforum disagree and recognise that the interplay between biological sex, gender identity and gender expression is complex.

So if you believe transwomen are female, do you also believe those you call "cis women" are male?

No, that's not how most antonyms work. Short women are women does not imply tall women are men.

Susan Calman 😂
£5 If I admit to knowing that reference can I still identify as a young thing?

I am actually identifying as Susan Calman and therefore I claim my fiver.

Get it up ye.

And I also identify with @334bu

So there.

Are services provided for cis men as well and do men who aren't trans understand this means them?

Also what difference in service would be required for a female who identified as non binary or agender and had a feminine presentation, and a female who identifies as cis?

I am aware most users of this subforum disagree and recognise that the interplay between biological sex, gender identity and gender expression is complex.

The concept of gender identity is not 'complex'. It just breaks down under scrutiny, particularly when you add in the concept of non-binary genders in a world of multiple genders.

For any lurkers who are interested this article explains why:

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

"The solution to an oppressive system that puts people into pink and blue boxes is not to create more and more boxes that are any colour but blue or pink. The solution is to tear down the boxes altogether."

Not really understanding what cisgender is I googled, it and would like to say

I AM NOT FUCKING CISGENDER I AM A FUCKING WOMAN

Jesus wept!

morninglive sometimes a quick google is extremely powerful stuff. I stepped back for fear spray from you there ! I FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME.

This is from last year but it's a good read for anyone not too familiar with 'cis'.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/why-women-have-right-call-ourselves-women-susan-dalgety-2277147%3famp

The concept of gender identity is not 'complex'

For me it is achingly simple.

Gender identity is the choice to call yourself whatever you want to identify as.

But sex is undeniable.

You can change the outside and switch to whatever mode you want but you cannot change sex.

And given that most who choose to identify as anything choose to keep the nethers they were born with, means they are just doing it because they can - not because they must.

@NiceGerbil

Also what difference in service would be required for a female who identified as non binary or agender and had a feminine presentation, and a female who identifies as cis?

A verbal dance around biological reality?

and recognise that the interplay between biological sex, gender identity and gender expression is complex.

In what sense? Why is gender identity or gender expression relevant to sex? People are male or female. This cannot be changed. Everything about expression is up to them. If they want to identify more with the opposite sex, fine, until their arm swinging hits my nose.

Thanks for the links @merrymouse and @cranberrieschoccyagain

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

I appreciate the patience too, but it's really coming down to, 'its just too hard work and time consuming to check and care about everyone's views equally so quicker to just impose a political view for our convenience, oh well'.... questionable

Sorry, but it really isn't that at all, and that suggestion totally ignores the many reasons I gave to you as to why.

It's economy of scale for the most part. We do not set the trends because in the larger scheme of things our organisation is tiny. It caters to less than 0.5% of the UK population. There are much larger organisations who provide much the same service on a far larger scale, and those organisations do indeed carry out much of the legwork that goes into establishing accepted best practice, terms of reference etc. We are not directly subservient to those larger organisations as they are not our commissioners, but we do look to them for guidance, we do have some agreements with them that are more akin to a 'memorandum of understanding'.

If anything we do is simply a question of 'hard work and time', it gets done. Period. People who work in third sector will tell you that there is absolutely no paucity of either in charitable organisations. We are bound by the strictures of our contracts and the terms of our funding, so invariably, what restricts us is funding first and foremost, and remit secondly.

Considering that biological women are 70% (approx) of our entire user base, it would be pretty bloody stupid if we just wrote them off as 'not the group we have to be really scared about offending'. People do not qualify for our service based on sex, but it does have a significant impact on how we can best provide the service to them, it has ramifications for what we can do with them in terms of signposting, referral onwards etc, so to imply that we simply don't care about them because of the fact that one specific term might be used on an infrequent and very limited basis is nonsense, not borne out by the fact that women record an almost universally positive response to our service and voluntarily return over and over as repeat users.

The organisation itself is overwhelmingly staffed by women, guided by a board that is majority female, and commissioned by a panel that is entirely female, so If we simply didn't care about offending women, then I'm pretty bloody sure it would be noted in short order and addressed.

But the majority of women have clearly stated in this chain that we are offended by the word CIS. We hate it. It demeans us. It reduces us to a subset of our sex.

We do not like this word, we do not want you to use this word to describe women.

You know this now, so there is no reason, excuse, or justification for continuing to use the word to describe women.

So now that's cleared up we can go back t9 using the correct term to describe us, which is woman. Thank you

Also cis was only coined (in relation to trans) in the mid 1990's by one random German sexologist. It's made up! Ideological batshitery at it's very worst. See anyone can do it. Not only is this movement compelling speech, deciding what words we can't use and words we must use, it is using words to describe us that we have expressly rejected.

Short women are women does not imply tall women are men.

That's because short women are women and tall women are women. Woman is a noun meaning adult human female. Short and tall are adjectives which describe the women.

Trans is not an adjective to describe a type of woman or a subset of women. Transwoman is a separate noun which refers to a male human who would rather be female.

No I'm bloody not Cis, never was and never will be. I find it offensive.

I find it offensive to have a label forced on me that I've not chosen. I can't identify with a term that assumes such patriarchal stereotypes determine gender identity. I am a woman, born with a female body. I like space, data, work in technology and am logical, direct and stubborn - stereotypically male preferences and traits but I have a vagina and am growing a human in my uterus. Cis also just sounds shit.

Sure, I have no problem with it. It's a bit like being European, I think about that very rarely but if asked what continent I'm from, I'd definitely call myself European.