Staniland Question is so good. Can we think of others?

[aliasundercover]

The Staniland question:
Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?
is so clever. The fact that so many people refuse to engage with it - let alone answer it - means it's a quick, powerful, way of showing how ridiculous the TWAW position is.

Can we think of any others that would be as effective? Maybe we could come up with 5 or so really sharp questions that TRAs could refuse to answer. My first thoughts are something along the lines of:
Why is it racist to identify as another race but stunning and brave to identify as another sex?
I'm sure somebody can word that better.

So any suggestions? The questions need to be short and clear.

Realistically communal changing rooms are always going to exist - schools have them so teachers can keep an eye on a whole class at a time for example. And schools often rent out their facilities. Leisure centres have them, private gyms have them. Asking those to have third spaces will be a lot cheaper than asking them to demolish their existing facilities and put up 1 or 2 person cubicles which won't provide enough spaces for all users.

Of course this could all be prevented by getting rid of communal changing rooms, which for some reason seems wildly unpopular on here, almost as if some people don't really want a solution that works for everyone because this isn't really about single sex spaces but about driving trans people out of society.

No, jj, a third space or no more communal spaces would be great. But we know two things: most older building don't have the space so it won't happen.
What will happen is that the womens is changed and the mens stay the same, basically giving women half the facilities they used to have.

A good solution would be to make the mens mixed or single cubicles and leave the womens alone. Why not campaign for that, jj?

A solution that would have worked was third spaces. Some thing most people would have been happy to donate to or fight for etc

I just don't believe that. When discussing communal changing rooms even on here many people objected to their abolition due to the cost/disruption. And given this demand usually comes with the caveat that space for women must not be reduced in the slightest then any third space would take up space from the men's - who would also probably object. As would business owners and council tax payers expected to foot the bill.

How we treat transmen in female spaces is a totally different topic to how we treat transwomen.

The issue is not with trans.

The issue is with males.

There's always an excuse though isn't there. No ones actually interested until women lose out.

Answer is always take away never to add. It's why rather than fight for men/males only gym /pool sessions people would rather just remove the women only ones.

@sanluca

If the men's was just made mixed sex and the women's stayed the same then the men's would end up being the mens and the women's the women's. It wouldn't change anything. And I doubt men would put up with the inconvenience of scrapping urinals, which would also involve significant reconstruction work.

@jj1968

A solution that would have worked was third spaces. Some thing most people would have been happy to donate to or fight for etc

I just don't believe that. When discussing communal changing rooms even on here many people objected to their abolition due to the cost/disruption. And given this demand usually comes with the caveat that space for women must not be reduced in the slightest then any third space would take up space from the men's - who would also probably object. As would business owners and council tax payers expected to foot the bill.

Still not women's problem to solve.

The problem is for males to sort out between themselves.

[quote jj1968]@sanluca

If the men's was just made mixed sex and the women's stayed the same then the men's would end up being the mens and the women's the women's. It wouldn't change anything. And I doubt men would put up with the inconvenience of scrapping urinals, which would also involve significant reconstruction work.[/quote]
The men wouldn't tolerate sacrifice for other males so the women must sacrifice themselves to meet male needs. Nice.

Proper misogyny that.

There's always an excuse though isn't there.

It's not an excuse. The demand that everywhere that provides single sex spaces should immediately construct a third space and that this must not impact on the women's space in any possible way virtually defies the laws of physics. It's highly unlikely that this could realistically even be achieved in many buildings let alone whether the public could be persuaded to support it.

I can refuse to undress in the presence of a harmless elderly man, an infirm man, a man who cannot see, a man who isn't sexually attracted to me, and a male brother, father or cousin who loves and would never harm me, all because I am the opposite sex to them all.
Women's right to privacy and dignity rests entirely upon sex, not upon the level of potential physical harm they might be exposed to from the presence of men.

'Harm' is not the ultimate boundary.
Privacy from the opposite sex is.

Why should any male person ever be permitted to override any woman's right to the dignity and boundaries of her sex, ever?

The demand that everywhere that provides single sex spaces should immediately construct a third space and that this must not impact on the women's space in any possible way virtually defies the laws of physics. It's highly unlikely that this could realistically even be achieved in many buildings let alone whether the public could be persuaded to support it.

I think you're confusing us with someone who gives a fuck. It isn't women's problem to solve. We have the right to say no to having men in our spaces, both for privacy and for safety. It doesn't matter how much you squeal about it or call us Terfs or yammer on about how unsafe it is to change around men (guess what - we know!) you still don't get to invade women's spaces. As Winesalot said yesterday:

The answer is still No!

We have the right to say no to having men in our spaces, both for privacy and for safety.

In cases where it is proportionate and legitimate you do have a concession to the right of equal treatment which permits discrimination against trans women in some cases. But not toilets and changing rooms with cubicles. The law is the law.

Should male custom officers be allowed to stripsearch female suspects if those custom officers say they identify as women?

This is quite interesting and relevent. The majority of people think it's okay for someone to use the toilets of the opposite sex if they really need to go:

The majority (56%) believe it is acceptable for a woman who badly needs to urinate and might otherwise wet themselves to use the men’s toilets. Only 29% disagree. The figures are almost the same if the situation were reversed and a man needed to go in the women’s toilets – 52% think this would be ok and 32% do not. In both scenarios, men and women are united in their views.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/03/20/potty-parity-would-it-be-fairer-make-womens-toilet

Why does it always come back to toilets, jj? Is that because that is the one that can derail a thread the easiest?

Shall we just leave toilets for what they are, a gray area and go bsck to the really good other questions on this thread?

I expect more people would mind actual men being in women's changing rooms. Yet this is ridiculous to object to.

Quite. It is, and always has been, an unconvincing argument that we can't object to males being in single sex women's spaces because there is a tiny minority of female people who look like men. And very dependent on people "passing". Which most trans people don't. Change the record.

A reminder that the Staniland question itself is about intact male sexed people using female changing rooms naked with women and girls also potentially naked, not about toilets, which are a different issue.

And that recent YouGov polling indicates that most U.K. women don't consent to sharing toilets and changing rooms with males if they have not had gender reassignment surgery ie penis is still intact. Which is by far the majority of MTF trans people, many of whom don't have any intention to have surgery.

Another possible question:

Should a female police officer be forced to strip search a male prisoner with intact genitalia , if that prisoner demands a female officer because they say they identify as a woman?

That's a good one.

jj, I have pointed out on other threads the various disadvantages of replacing all communal changing rooms with individual cubicles. I won't rehearse them here, suffice to say that it would be expensive and would provide far less space overall than communal changing rooms, which would have an impact on eg the time it might take you to change.

I am perfectly happy for a few individual cubicles to be created for those who need them. I don't have an issue if a small amount of space is taken from the men's and women's changing rooms equally to provide for this solution, provided that they are separate from the single-sex facilities.

Why is this not a solution? Is it that this doesn't provide the validation of womenhood that some mtf transitioners seem to want, or is something else? Why the insistence on getting rid of single-sex spaces entirely?

But not toilets and changing rooms with cubicles.

#fakenews #StonewallLaw

The EHRC actually removed wording from some of their guidance which said that it was unlawful to require MTF trans people to use a different facility to women, following pressure by feminist campaign group Fair Play for Women, as it is untrue.

The EHRC has already begun to step back from some of their previous advice on this. On October 5th 2018 following correspondence from Fair Play For Women it updated its guidance document “What Equality Law Means for your Business”s”_ removing the statement “Where someone has a gender recognition certificate they should be treated in their acquired gender for all purposes and therefore should not be excluded from single sex services”^. It also removed the statement that a pub should not refuse a transgender person “access to the toilets appropriate to the sex in which they present”

Interestingly they've taken the whole document down now.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/single-sex/

jj - it doesn't matter how much you and your Stonewall chums lie about the law, it doesn't alter what the law actually is.

@aliasundercover

The Staniland question: Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls? is so clever. The fact that so many people refuse to engage with it - let alone answer it - means it's a quick, powerful, way of showing how ridiculous the TWAW position is.

Can we think of any others that would be as effective? Maybe we could come up with 5 or so really sharp questions that TRAs could refuse to answer. My first thoughts are something along the lines of:
Why is it racist to identify as another race but stunning and brave to identify as another sex?
I'm sure somebody can word that better.

So any suggestions? The questions need to be short and clear.

Do female sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?

Well no, as most girl schools will tell you. What is this obsession with adult women wanting the protected right to undress in front of girls in communal changing areas as though its normal? Wouldn't the Equality Act allow for this to be a protected space if its trueand a problem? I am not aware of any trans people who have demanded or exercised the right to change in communal areas in front of young girls yet it seems to be something that feminists want to do or am I reading this wrong?

There speaks someone who is completely unaware or unbothered about the risks that men pose towards women and girls in terms of sex offences...

@Ereshkigalangcleg

A reminder that the Staniland question itself is about intact male sexed people using female changing rooms naked with women and girls also potentially naked, not about toilets, which are a different issue.

And that recent YouGov polling indicates that most U.K. women don't consent to sharing toilets and changing rooms with males if they have not had gender reassignment surgery ie penis is still intact. Which is by far the majority of MTF trans people, many of whom don't have any intention to have surgery.

I would like to add that there is no demand or expectation from us to have such surgery. I only say that because I've seen TRAs claim that we (GC feminists) want TW to cut off their genitals. We don't.