Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told

607 replies

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 09/02/2021 17:41

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-brightons-trans-friendly-midwives-are-told-pwlvmcnc7

Hope this link works as I am a subscriber to the times and logged in.

More nonsense being peddled as 'progressive' Angry. When will the madness end!!?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
WarriorN · 15/02/2021 09:39

What about the patient's right to ask for a female hcp?

Plumbuddle · 15/02/2021 09:54

@SapphosRock

I am hoping someone reads this who may be intending to chest feed and considers the impact of their actions on the child they are bringing into the world. Selfish does not even begin to cover it.

I don't see it as selfish, in fact I think that's a pretty offensive thing to say. it will only be used in relation to trans people not all women.

I live in Brighton and know a trans man who gave birth here. He's one of the loveliest people I've met and a great parent. He agreed with the midwives to use the term chestfeeding as it felt more appropriate for him. This has zero impact on anyone but him.

I've given birth twice in Brighton and unsurprisingly the midwives only referred to breastfeeding because I'm not trans.

Struggling to understand why it's such a big deal?

Of course it has an impact on someone other than the trans man. It impacts on the baby. Breastfeeding is a supremely emotional experience. Many women have had the experience of it being a bit harder to do when you are feeling tense. The baby picks up every emotion. If a feeding parent is constantly verbally attentive and hyper vigilant to language in this sort of way they will be a less relaxed feeder. That impacts on the baby's sense of comfort.
WarriorN · 15/02/2021 10:01

I wouldn't have an issue with it in a private situation, to make an individual situation easier. (They're still not a father though, that term belongs to the child.) But my basic biology alevel knowledge, and art life drawing/ anatomy class knowledge, has small pedantic fits as men have breasts too.

Chest, if we are being accurate, aka the thorax.

Thoraxfeeding?

Plumbuddle · 15/02/2021 10:04

@SweetMeadow

The comment about that hospital not using the word ‘Mother’ is just so upsetting. It undermines and diminishes the significant change women go through when they become a mother. Like the change during puberty to becoming an adolescent, women change physically and mentally once they become a mother (this change is called matrescence) - it has a term but it’s not so well known).

I personally found this change massive, traumatic, difficult, heartbreaking and then wonderful but it’s a process that a women goes through as they leave their pre baby life behind and become a mother, also known as the birth of the mother. Is this really being taken away from us or in fact, worse, not acknowledged by some now? What a dreadful step backwards and I worry about maternal mental health. Knowing this was a process that new mothers went through was what helped me come to peace with the way I was feeling and my new identity after birth but I think I’d feel so alone if that was taken away from me.

Wonderful post, how fascinating @sweetmeadow. You have given me a lightbulb moment
Plumbuddle · 15/02/2021 10:08

@merrymouse

To be fair, 'breast' is still allowed. It's just the meaning of the word has changed.

Before chest and breast referred to different parts of your body, now they just denote whether you are a pink or blue person.

GrinGrinGrinthis nails it
WarriorN · 15/02/2021 10:11

Yes a truly lovey post.

WarriorN · 15/02/2021 10:12

This nails it

Doesn't it just?!

DaisiesandButtercups · 15/02/2021 10:28

@WarriorN

All the details from the trust that moles posted is exclusionary for any woman from a particular background where religion and culture dictates that they must have access to female hcps.

I can't tell if those hcps are definitely adult human females.

Whist, as an agnostic (I think?!), I don't condone certain religious "rules" I do respect them and religion is part of the list of protected characteristics.

Where's the massive write up about those protected characteristics?

This

And other excellent points by WarriorN

Thanks so much to Molesmokes for researching and posting very that important information.

MagicFerret exactly. Queer theory does seek to deconstruct the family as well as altering definitions of words as picked up on by Plumbuddle. This is about destabilising society (and individuals within society). All established ways of doing things must be disrupted for the queering of society even if those established ways are supportive or protective, such as safeguarding standards.

It really stands out that efforts are not matched at all for other protected characteristics of which there are significantly more mothers than the handful of the trans identifying.

In a few short years, actually what 2 years or something, of having trans people using maternity services they have been handed on a plate with all the trimmings concessions which decades of demonstrable need and lobbying have not achieved for other groups and overturned those gains which women did manage to achieve such as clear, respectful some might say empowering language.

I can’t stop asking the question how are this minority group so powerful? Why are they routinely portrayed as the most oppressed and yet at times appear to be the most highly privileged?

Tibtom · 15/02/2021 10:38

All established ways of doing things must be disrupted for the queering of society

What is the difference between this and anarchists?

Justhadathought · 15/02/2021 10:41

I can’t stop asking the question how are this minority group so powerful? Why are they routinely portrayed as the most oppressed and yet at times appear to be the most highly privileged

Because this, now, tremendously diverse group has been tagged on to the LGB movement, and as such has all of its existing resources and support base working in its favour - and that includes many prominent and powerful and wealthy gay/men - both here and across the Atlantic.

Clymene · 15/02/2021 10:42

This is the pinned tweet at the top of the leading midwife behind this.

What a meaningless load of PoMo nonsense

Breastfeeding is now chestfeeding, Brighton’s trans-friendly midwives are told
Justhadathought · 15/02/2021 10:45

"Consultant Neonatologist
Neil Aiton

Pronouns: He/him

Neil is our Consultant Neonatologist, a doctor who specialises in providing care for babies born early or poorly. Neil specialises in supporting people who take medications in pregnancy that may affect the baby/babies. He is experienced in planning any additional monitoring babies may need in pregnancy or after they are born, as well as developing infant feeding plans where parents may need to take medication that may transfer into their milk In addition, Neil is available to support induced lactation for partners.

Justhadathought · 15/02/2021 10:49

Btw the unconscious (also conscious?) racism described around breastfeeding support in that episode of woman's hour was also disgusting

Could you describe that.

merrymouse · 15/02/2021 10:55

I can’t stop asking the question how are this minority group so powerful? Why are they routinely portrayed as the most oppressed and yet at times appear to be the most highly privileged

I think its very simple - most people who have power are male, so couldn't give a rat's arse about the impact of these policies on women. The Stonewall endorsement scam costs little, and in return you get to pink wash your company or organisation.

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/07/cancel-culture-and-problem-woke-capitalism/614086/

You don't need some kind of grand conspiracy theory to explain the oppression of women. You just need to understand that society assumes the default is always male.

Justhadathought · 15/02/2021 11:05

You don't need some kind of grand conspiracy theory to explain the oppression of women. You just need to understand that society assumes the default is always male

Indeed. And that women's rights are culturally/religiously relative and/or optional, and this fact should be respected. We shouldn't impose our standards of conduct onto those ( men) of other cultures or religions, even when they are acting within our jurisdiction. Especially if we are white, western or from any country, especially Britain, which has had an empire.

WarriorN · 15/02/2021 11:50

@Justhadathought

Btw the unconscious (also conscious?) racism described around breastfeeding support in that episode of woman's hour was also disgusting

Could you describe that.

Better to listen to the programme if I'm honest as I don't want to misrepresent anything or anyone or the research.

From memory it was essentially around an unconsciously biased idea that black women "knew how to breastfeed" so didn't need the support. Was the experience described by the interview; this was in hospital. Presumably based on ideas of culture and background.

WarriorN · 15/02/2021 12:01

Disability.

Wendy Jones the lactation pharmacist has been/ has written a book about supporting mothers to breastfeed who have chronic conditions and disabilities that require various medications.

The breastfeeding network has been working tirelessly to create excellent info fact sheets on medications. Lll and lactation consultants (mostly private, the qualification isn't recognised in the U.K. I don't think) are brilliant for supporting with this too.

I don't see similar inclusive write ups for this protected characteristic.

MaudTheInvincible · 15/02/2021 12:29

@SweetMeadow

The comment about that hospital not using the word ‘Mother’ is just so upsetting. It undermines and diminishes the significant change women go through when they become a mother. Like the change during puberty to becoming an adolescent, women change physically and mentally once they become a mother (this change is called matrescence) - it has a term but it’s not so well known).

I personally found this change massive, traumatic, difficult, heartbreaking and then wonderful but it’s a process that a women goes through as they leave their pre baby life behind and become a mother, also known as the birth of the mother. Is this really being taken away from us or in fact, worse, not acknowledged by some now? What a dreadful step backwards and I worry about maternal mental health. Knowing this was a process that new mothers went through was what helped me come to peace with the way I was feeling and my new identity after birth but I think I’d feel so alone if that was taken away from me.

Matrescence is a wonderful word.
Plumbuddle · 15/02/2021 12:34

@KindAndFurious

To me this seems not to be about supporting transmen as one could easily use the term 'nursing' or nursing parent. Rather, seeing that transwomen who are biological males won't ever be able to breastfeed with their breasts. They probably don't like the fact that their breasts can't do the one key thing a woman's breast are designed for: feed their mammal offspring. So that lowly thing that women do to keep their infants alive can be dismissively called chest feeding and breast are just sex things.
THIS. I strongly suspect it is about this. Feels the same to me as restaurant clientele wanting women to stop breastfeeding in public. I remember a man at the next table being furious that his teenage son saw me doing it. His face was consumed with rage. He clearly had wanted the son to think of breasts as a pure object of lust (suppressed lust of course). I had deprived thim of his fantasy power over his son so I was to be reviled. If you go trans to escape being objectified as a woman then it is logical to try to reframe parts of yourself that you feared were objectified by giving them gender neutral terms. This is all born of a misguided defensive reaction to gendered abuse and I refuse to be required to cover up and adopt the same victim stance.
OhHolyJesus · 15/02/2021 13:03

In addition, Neil is available to support induced lactation for partners.

What's the betting that Neil isn't just talking about female partners inducing lactation?

Newman Goldfarb has been researched for women, but there is no long term medical peer reviewed research that it's safe in males, as La Leche League would have us believe.

Though Domperidone doesn't cross the blood/brain barrier I read that it was double the dose and when the father (assuming genetic relation between the mother's partner and the newborn) does the feeding it can reduce the demands in the mothers milk and impact her supply.

Plumbuddle · 15/02/2021 13:41

@DaisiesandButtercups

But of course the point is that when the word woman has a new definition the traditional idea of women’s issues/rights/problems has a new definition and that is the brick wall that we keep coming up against.

Gender ideology and queer theory teach that there is nothing specific at all about being a woman, it is merely a construct.

I happen to have an old copy of The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding

“Many women are surprised by the passion they come to feel about breastfeeding. If you meet another breastfeeding woman anywhere in the world, you feel a connection, no matter how different her culture is, and no matter how long ago you or she breastfed your babies. Not many of us felt this passionately about breastfeeding until we did it ourselves, and many of us remember it as one of the best things we do in our lives. The experience is just that powerful.”

There are people who really want to cut women off from any kind of powerful connection to one another.

There are people who really do want to think of gestational carriers and birthing bodies as machines or containers for making babies.

I don’t know how to see this other than as steps towards dehumanising and disempowering women and to turning us back into chattel.

This.
WarriorN · 15/02/2021 14:50

Oh holy Jesus, OhHolyJesus. No fucking words.

MagicFerret · 15/02/2021 15:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DaisiesandButtercups · 15/02/2021 15:39

@OhHolyJesus

In addition, Neil is available to support induced lactation for partners.

What's the betting that Neil isn't just talking about female partners inducing lactation?

Newman Goldfarb has been researched for women, but there is no long term medical peer reviewed research that it's safe in males, as La Leche League would have us believe.

Though Domperidone doesn't cross the blood/brain barrier I read that it was double the dose and when the father (assuming genetic relation between the mother's partner and the newborn) does the feeding it can reduce the demands in the mothers milk and impact her supply.

It is sad for La Leche League that they don’t realise that by embracing gender ideology and queer theory they surrender everything they previously held dear such as the importance of the family unit and the mother-baby bond within that unit.

According to their philosophy

“Mother and baby need to be together early and often to establish a satisfying relationship and an adequate milk supply.”

From the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding

“Partners will want to connect with their babies, too, and when they see the closeness and intimacy of the breastfeeding relationship, feeding the baby themselves looks like the obvious way to do it. But there are a gazillion ways to bond with the baby... in fact, partners have the key role of teaching the baby that love sometimes comes without food. Some partners take over bath time. Your partner might like to let the baby have daily “tummy time” by leaning back on the couch, baby on chest, or by wearing the baby in a wrap or sling (tummy time doesn’t have to be horizontal!).
Partners can be wonderful comforters. Babies like different voices, from low and rumbly to soft and motherly. Most partners soon figure out their own repertoire of baby-soothing tricks. They will be different from the birth mother’s. But “different” can help!
Partners can often help by doing everything but feeding.”

So there appears to be a recognition that the mother who gave birth to the baby is the one with whom the feeding relationship should be established. Anyone else feeding the baby is perhaps doing it because he or she wants to and not because it is the best interests of the mother or baby. Mother and baby need to establish a balance of supply and demand. The mother needs the confidence to feel that she can do it herself which may be undermined by a third party’s involvement. The baby needs lots of practice at his or her mother’s breast to establish a good technique developed for the mother’s own particular anatomy. The mother’s milk is responsive, changing all the time according to the baby’s needs and the environment around mother and baby.

Dr Nils Bergman writes of the fourth trimester, a period of approximately 9 months after the birth when the baby continues to be physically and psychologically dependent on the mother and when nothing should come between them for the optimal health and well-being of both.