Friends dd has just come out as agender

[Teenageromance]

She is supporting her choices as that is what we do - but how do I support her without compromising that I know it is a lot of nonsense. The dd wants to change her name and use alternative pronouns.

@bitliketonyhares

If you wanted to be supportive, you wouldn't be online calling it a load of nonsense. You're here for strangers to agree it's nonsense, and to validate you. Try researching and educating yourself, if you actually want to show support.

Researching and educating herself on what? You cannot change sex.

@MumOfPsuedoAdult

but she's using different pronouns and I don't agree with that

As mentioned by a PP, if I legally changed my name to one you didn't like/approve of (because you'd always known me as mumof..) would you refuse to use it?

Whether you agree with it or not, it's her choice so 'not agreeing with it' is your problem not hers and it would be disrespectful not to use it.

She's a teenager and anyone who has one knows that some things they do are for effect/to exercise their independence. She may grow out of it, but she may not. This will be difficult enough for your friend without you adding your judgement.

What bollocks. Names are personal. You get given one and if you’re not happy you can change it. Third person pronouns aren’t personal. They belong to others to describe you in the third person. In English, they are sex-based. I will not be compelled to talk about someone who isn’t in my presence in a particular way. And if you changed your name by deed poll and weren’t here and I wanted to talk about you, I would talk about you however I want and use whatever name I wanted to. You can’t compel me to do anything else any more than Trump can compel me to refer to him as The Greatest President Ever.

@NotBadConsidering you've missed my point entirely.

By saying what she did the OP is making it about her opinion rather than about the person's choices.

And when you say And if you changed your name by deed poll and weren’t here and I wanted to talk about you, I would talk about you however I want and use whatever name I wanted to you're doing the same.

It’s only polite and the they pronoun has a long history.

People keep saying this but it’s not the same at all. The use of “they” as a singular pronoun is either for when you’re not speaking about a specific person, or for when a person’s sex is not known.

Insisting that others use “they/their” about you, when they know your sex but you don’t want them to make any reference to it, is an entirely different situation.

It's not really surprising that teenagers are confused about their gender identity. They're told that they should have one, but nobody can explain what it is without resorting to regressive sexist stereotypes.

One of the most succinct and helpful summaries of the issues I've ever seen! Nail on the head there. I think I am 'confused about my gender identity' too if I think about it though I don't care as it does seem to be about regressive stereotypes.

[quote MumOfPsuedoAdult]@NotBadConsidering you've missed my point entirely.

By saying what she did the OP is making it about her opinion rather than about the person's choices.

And when you say And if you changed your name by deed poll and weren’t here and I wanted to talk about you, I would talk about you however I want and use whatever name I wanted to you're doing the same.[/quote]
Yes that’s correct. It is MY opinion and decision how I talk, whether to respect your choice or not. You can’t compel me to do so if you’re not there. If you’ve chosen a name I will address you by that name, regardless of my opinion of the name. I come across stupid names every day. But when I was at home, and when I talk about you I will express my opinion however I want.

When the OP is talking about this child to other people, there is no need to use “they” because the child isn’t there to hear it. It would only be an issue is someone grassed on the OP and said “ *Teenageromance misgendered you!”

In the presence of the child it would be “you”. No one should be compelled to lie, no one should be compelled to “be kind” to someone who isn’t even present, while denying the accuracy of language and bowing to an ideology they don’t believe in.

You could ask the teenager to define “gender”. Then point out it is all regressive sexist stereotypes.
Tell her all adult feminists are in effect “agender” because we reject it as patriarchal conditioning - we have a sex, not a “gender”. Congratulate her for joining the GC radfems.

@Teenageromance

And a name change which I’m quite happy to do - I object to using alternative pronouns to normal accepted English. I don’t think a 16 year old has the right to dictate I change accepted English grammar for her.

@NotBadConsidering this implies that the OP is not referring to just talking about the person, but also talking to them.

No, it indicates that the 16 year old wants the OP to change the OP’s grammar. There is nothing about “to them [sic]”. You’ve inferred that, it hasn’t been implied. In real life, the only way the OP would have to use “they” as a third person pronoun would be if the OP was talking to someone else with the 16 year old present.

@Teenageromance

And a name change which I’m quite happy to do - I object to using alternative pronouns to normal accepted English. I don’t think a 16 year old has the right to dictate I change accepted English grammar for her.

Like I said before, ' they' has been used as a singular pronoun since Shakespeare's time. It's really not new.

And it's no skin off your nose to try it.

I wonder. Would it be OK to say to the agender child something along the lines of, ' Yes, all this talk about 'gender' as though it were a real thing is just really silly, isn't it? '

Or would people think that 'unkind'?

[After all, it is really silly, is it not?]

Just repeat the name if you don't want to use pronouns. 'How's Dave getting on?'

They has been used as a singular pronoun when the sex of the person isn’t known or when it is being disguised. To pretend it doesn’t mean anything more significant now and it’s no big deal is disingenuous rubbish. We all know it means being complicit in going along with the idea that a person - a child in this case - can be something other than the sex they are, or is not the sex they are. It helps no one and is the first part of a pathway that ends in permanent changes from testosterone and a mastectomy. It’s not benign. And I’ll say it again, no one should be compelled to lie.

DD floated the idea of being agender when she couldn't understand why her contemporaries were giggling over boys.
Later she realised that the reason she couldn't understand their attraction to boys was because she preferred girls. She's now happily lesbian.

This article (by Sue and Marcus Evans, psychotherapists who both worked at the Tavistock) : https://quillette.com/2021/02/04/first-do-no-harm-a-new-model-for-treating-trans-identified-children/ is very good at explaining why it is not in a gender questioning child's best interests to be surrounded by 'affirmation'.

"Family members and clinical services are pressured to support the patient’s belief that his or her psychic problems can be dealt with by interfering with the body’s appearance and functioning. And many do come to believe that the most humane course of action is to help alleviate the individual’s distressing symptoms of gender dysphoria with affirmative therapy. But there is evidence that this can further cement the trans identity—rather than allow for some acceptance of one’s natural body and gender (which would allow the individual to avoid the medical risks of hormone therapy)."

The notion that we must go along with a child's beliefs is founded in queer theory, not sound psychological practice.

The notion that we must go along with a child's beliefs is founded in queer theory, not sound psychological practice.

The study just published from the Tavistock showed no improvement in psychological functioning with puberty blockers. This also means they had no improvement in their psychological functioning. Full stop. They had no improvement going to a gender clinic for several years, and being referred to by preferred pronouns. If it’s meant to help, why don’t these kids improve when there are objective measurements?

Agender is defined as denoting or relating to a person who does not identify themselves as having a particular gender

Doesn't that describe most gender critical feminists?

Yes, but it is the language of gender ideology. I prefer "gender atheist".

Like I said before, ' they' has been used as a singular pronoun since Shakespeare's time. It's really not new.

As several of us have pointed out on this thread, using “they/their” when you either don’t know the sex or aren’t speaking about a specific person is not in any way the same as being compelled to refer to a person as “they/their” when you know both the person and their sex.

Ereshkigalangcleg
Fantastic 'gender aethiest'! I think I'll put that in my 'other' box at work where I need to describe my gender.

Poor bairn, it's not easy being a teenager growing up in this crazy world. Hopefully she'll realise that she doesn't align with gender stereotypes because they're bollocks and regressive - maybe a baby radfem in the making!

It's someone who doesn't identify as either gender

But genders are infinite, there are only 2 sexes however.

So (general) you can identify as any gender you like, not many people care except ( general) you.
But you will still have a sex. And that sex is an absolute.

Gender is not the same as sex. Let's not conflate the two words here on fwr

@Gurufloof

It's someone who doesn't identify as either gender

But genders are infinite, there are only 2 sexes however.

So (general) you can identify as any gender you like, not many people care except ( general) you.
But you will still have a sex. And that sex is an absolute.

Gender is not the same as sex. Let's not conflate the two words here on fwr

Good point! I did think that the definitions seem to conflate gender and sex..

(the definition I got came from a wiki page)

One of my boy dogs is currently running round the house with my bra in his mouth.

Maybe he’s trying to tell me he wants referred to as she.

Or that he’s transhuman.

Yep that will be it, he already sleeps in people beds, sits on a people seat in the car with his doggy car seat & harness, jumps on kids trampoline in the garden and frequently climbs in the bath with them.

Must be his way of saying look mum I’m a real human too.