Friends dd has just come out as agender

[Teenageromance]

She is supporting her choices as that is what we do - but how do I support her without compromising that I know it is a lot of nonsense. The dd wants to change her name and use alternative pronouns.

So, be kind?

@MrGHardy

Better than transgender. Is she smart? She realizes to opt out of womanhood she doesn't have to pretend to be a boy but 'agender' is enough.

I don't know

I have a contact who is gender non binary and is going to have her breasts removed. She's an adult so her choice.

But it sounds like you think being agender is surgery free, but it's not necessarily. Sorry if I have misunderstood.

No you are right, I recently read a tweet that point out that female NB somehow to a large degree have surgery, but male NB don't.

Just use her name all the time, so you never have to use a pronoun.

@MrGHardy

So, be kind?

Of course, why wouldn't you be? We're talking about a teenager here, one who's confused about their gender identity, that makes them vulnerable and at risk of depression and self harm.

@Providora

I think it's possible to be concerned by transactivism at a political/societal level while being kind and respectful to individual trans people. Especially teenagers. You can come here and huff and puff about it but be kind to the kid, it's no effort on your part to address them as they've requested.

This.

We're talking about a teenager here, one who's confused about their gender identity,

It's not really surprising that teenagers are confused about their gender identity. They're told that they should have one, but nobody can explain what it is without resorting to regressive sexist stereotypes.

I'm glad I'm far too old to have a gender identity and I feel sorry for kids now growing up with all this regressive stereotyping.

General clarification, mixed up with a bit of standing on a soapbox from me: agender generally means not feeling you have a gender identity. (So most of us habitual posters!)

Agender is one of the natural conclusions to be reached if you feel the same way as us adult gender-critical feminists on here do, but you don't want to disrespect or doubt your peers' insistence that they do have a gender identity.

From age 18 onwards, I spent ages wrestling between my previous beliefs that my body was me and anything I did was something women did, if I was doing it (thank you feminist writers!) and trying to accommodate my new trans friends' statements that they had a gender identity. I vacillated between agreeing that I was "cis" and my gender was simply in such harmony with my body that I couldn't detect it, and trusting my own mind that I didn't have a gender-identity.

I'm less willing to accommodate people at my expense these days.

I’m reluctant to use preferred pronouns because of the knock on effect. Calling a female ‘they’ doesn’t really affect the story but calling someone else a ‘she’ has such a twist on the narrative.

Anyway. In terms of support, rather than focusing on what this person identifies as, would it be helpful to focus on what they want? (Turn the attention from inward to forward) Do they want to be able to wear what they want without comment? Be treated the same as males? Do they want to be able to avoid or do certain activities? Do they want to be able to speak a certain way (more assertive maybe?)
This may help you and their mum support and empower them in a practical way and give them the language to get what they want from life

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Just treat her as you always have. 99% chance it’s a rebellious/discovering yourself phase she will grow out if like we did with punk and then the next generation with goth and the one after with emo. These days it’s not culture/fashion it’s gender. It will pass.

Do you know one of the terribly narratives common if you reach the accounts of the desisters is they often say how nobody said anything to them. No one challenged them. This affirmation model results in adults smiling and nodding, or jumping completely on the affirmation bandwagon. Desisters speak to what a huge let down this was.

They are child decided they're going to transition & the entire world smiles along and adopts pronouns. No
One ever say "you know it's bullshit you can't actually change sex right?"

if this is in conflict with how you "believe" then say so. Remember beliefs are the main priority now so what's wrong with talking about your beliefs?

the alternative is going along with something this child believes about herself that was planted in her mind by strangers on the Internet with dubious motives.

Be the trusted adult.

@yanyat

Wow you are disgusting, you ask how you can support them yet point blank refuse to use their preferred pronouns. Gender has always been a spectrum because it is a social construct. Either support her or cut contact with your friend or she will cut contact with you for being so rude.

Indeed, gender is a made-up thing but sex is biological reality and the pronouns we use are related to sex, not to gender.

In reality there shouldn’t be a need to use ‘they’ - when this girl is present just use her name or ‘you’. Job done. I’m with you on this one OP, being of the opinion that the vast majority of people just have a biological sex and a personality. Also agree with the poster upthread who said that using ‘they’ when you know someone’s sex is awkward and creates dissonance.

BTW Apparently if you don’t have a ‘gender identity’ yourself (or don’t buy into the gender woo) you are also agender OP! From Wiki: “Agender people ('a-' meaning "without"), also called genderless, gender-free, non-gendered, or ungendered, are those who identify as having no gender or being without a gender identity.”

If you are someone who thinks that pronouns don't relate to biological sex and do to gender, please let us know how you refer to pets. Because unless you've asked them how they feel or what their gender is, you simply can't call a female cat or dog "she" - because pronouns are not related to sex. You'll need to be saying "they" I guess? Or are there different pronouns for animals whose gender identity we're not yet sure of?

Also, I'm guessing you don't really use pronouns for anybody who hasn't explicitly told you what theirs are, otherwise you'll be assuming their pronouns based on their sex..which is, apparently, entirely wrong.

@PrawnPower thank you...that’s a good point!

My understanding is that non binary is a belief you don't have a sex, you believe you are neither male or female.
Agender is you don't identify as any gender, so the social construct.
Is this right? Also I have considered calling myself gender free or agender but it still doesn't seem right when what I really want to say is I don't believe in gender ideology. It's like you are being asked what is your religion and having no option to say none.

I think you can ignore the pronoun debate and have some healthy discussion about gender stereotypes and how sexist they are and as a femsle she can do anything she wants. My daughter gets told she can't be a pilot by her sexist male classmates which she found really distressing. But now she has a question for them 'why do you fly a plane with your penis?"
I think you will have a lot of common ground and whilst you are talking to her there is no need for pronouns.

I think your friend may be feeling quite scared and your support with honesty out of earshot of the child is probably what's she needs. As parents we are allowed to talk about children!

Interesting about the Desisters that noone questioned them, we shouldn't be frightened to challenge our children. Isn't rebellion a natural phase of development, if we don't challenge then where is the rebellion?

@mummyhelen3

Don't be a dick. This child needs support and needs to feel safe in their identity. It's not your place to tell them whether their identity is valid or not. It's not going to hurt you if this child is comfortable in themselves. Grow up and get over yourself.

I agree the child needs support. However this does not always mean blind affirmation. One of the problems with children adopting trans identities is they then often fall through the net for actual, genuine support. There is a huge risk of the underlying trauma being ignored, because the narrative goes that all of their problems were around their identity struggles, and going forward, all of their problems are around how "transphobic" people who disagree that you can change sex are, and how hard it is to get hormones.

The actual, underlying life events that cause the child to express pain in today's socially acceptable language are not limited to: parental divorce, being gay, being autistic, being adhd, sexual abuse, bullying, being gender non conforming, being a girl growing up in a misogynist society and porn soaked culture etc.

but she's using different pronouns and I don't agree with that

As mentioned by a PP, if I legally changed my name to one you didn't like/approve of (because you'd always known me as mumof..) would you refuse to use it?

Whether you agree with it or not, it's her choice so 'not agreeing with it' is your problem not hers and it would be disrespectful not to use it.

She's a teenager and anyone who has one knows that some things they do are for effect/to exercise their independence. She may grow out of it, but she may not. This will be difficult enough for your friend without you adding your judgement.

Treat her the same as you normally would, she is trying to be trendy and attention seeking. She will hopefully grow out of it.

We're talking about a teenager here, one who's confused about their gender identity, that makes them vulnerable and at risk of depression and self harm.

Someone who is at risk of depression and self-harm needs to be referred by their GP for appropriate support for their mental health.

Just call her by the name she wants and use they as a pronoun. It’s only polite and the they pronoun has a long history.

It worries me too that girls feel so straight jacketed by their danger, but I get the point that being an adult woman doesn’t look like a whole bunch of fun. Agender is a new term to me - but you could take it to me that people have a biological sex but the rest is individual character, if you have the opportunity to chat to her you could talk this through as a sharing of ideas.

I understand your concerns, but I think the best way to approach this is with curiosity, to explore why she feels straight jacketed by her gender, because whatever your views, it’s an interesting and important area. The chances are once she’s worked this thorough she’ll go back to thinking of herself as a woman, but hopefully this period will help her feel that it’s a less limiting space than it seems now.

Gender not danger!