Friends dd has just come out as agender

[Teenageromance]

She is supporting her choices as that is what we do - but how do I support her without compromising that I know it is a lot of nonsense. The dd wants to change her name and use alternative pronouns.

Gosh so as a teenage Goth it could have gone arseways? I'm still mostly goth but am female and have always been.

"I have a similar situation with a friend, and I use their chosen pronouns because I treat it as a matter of common courtesy to address people as they wish to be addressed."
If I'm using a pronoun about someone, then I am talking about them, not to them. They're not there. If they were there, I'd be using their name or 'you'. And since they're not there, I cannot 'address' them.

So that reduces using the words that they want me to use when they're not there to hear me use those words - to compelled speech. Compelled speech is not common courtesy. Indeed, it's deeply discourteous of them to attempt to compel my speech.

I'm more anti-gender than agender. As in fuck gender! Bring back sex!

It is hard enough to remember names. Why should I have to try and remember which individuals want me to ignore established rules of language when they're not even present and try and remember what particular letter combination they insist upon? Especially when my conversation partner may not know who I am referring to and what their preferred made up pronouns are? Doing so reduces comprehension and understanding.

@Coyoacan I couldn’t think of any weaker argument for what I’m trying to get across than what you said.

I think most of us are agender and I'd share that info as this is not a way to be special any more than we all are. But I'd use the pronouns 'she' wants. It's grating but not the biggest deal. Probably would divert to calling her by her name more than using pronouns TBH as I'm old and my brain can't easily learn new languages.

I wouldn’t worry too much about this. It’s pretty easy when referring to your friend’s DD to just use their name. Don’t get drawn into battle anywhere it’s wasted energy is my philosophy.

I’d agree with the ‘I consider myself agender too’ thing. Not because it will horrify the teen (although it definitely will) but because it’s a pragmatic decision if gender is under discussion- I don’t really believe in it at all therefore I am agender, I do not have a gender.

@OldPervsWithNoFannyOfTheirOwn

My house is a safe space for DC’s friends to visit. The main rule I have made with DC is that any discussion is respectful.

He and I disagree vehemently about a particular subject and rather than go through a heated debate every time, now I stop him and say “I won’t get involved in this discussion because I believe the problems you’re raising stem from it being a bad idea to begin with”

He can believe what he likes but I won’t problem-solve for him when IMO the problem is the belief itself. So far its reduced arguments on that topic by 100%.

I occasionally get ‘sounded out’ but the fact I’m consistent and he has to problem-solve himself means he has thought more carefully about the topic, not just jumped straight to being defensive and more entrenched.

Of his friends, I use names to avoid pronouns where necessary and try to reply honestly as tactfully as I can.

Pre-lockdown #1 I overheard them in the garden having a gentle exploration of it maybe being better to just be yourself with no pressure ‘like here - your mum never cares and she wears some weird shit herself’

I’ve never been so happy to have my dress sense questioned

So my advice is, you can be respectful by using their name, and/or pronouns, and keep a boundary about discussions so things don’t get heated but you aren’t ‘pretending’ to keep the peace.

I still disagree on one specific aspect with DC however he and his friends know they can be themselves here without the need to form arguments/defend positions.

From my limited experience they want to be themselves more than they want to ‘be right’ and given that safe space they soon question stuff themselves.

The defensiveness when they are challenged reminded me a lot of when I was questioned about my abusive ex, I did not want to be forced to defend him but I was too scared of the consequences if I didn’t.

It was only in a safe space that I could start to really think about his words and actions and their impact on me, for myself

So that’s what I try to bear in mind with DC & co.

This is great. Well done, Old. I’d like to be this parent if I can.

@JaneJeffer

What is agender? Can someone tell me please!

It's someone who doesn't identify as either gender. It's a type of non-binary, with no particular connection with either. Some people change to gender neutral pronouns if they are agender, but they don't have to.

I do not care what I call a person other than it is what they want .. Abigail, Tom or x whatever. I do not care what anyone identifies as or who they shag. As long as they are a consenting adult Happy is as happy does. However I only wish to share a personal change or toilet space with an xx chromosome person on individual who no longer has xy genitalia

Has the ‘pronouns in space’ thread just been deleted? Because of what Barracker said? Crikey, sometimes it really feels like 1950s Eastern Europe round here ...

Wow you are disgusting, you ask how you can support them yet point blank refuse to use their preferred pronouns. Gender has always been a spectrum because it is a social construct. Either support her or cut contact with your friend or she will cut contact with you for being so rude.

There’s us told, thank you, dear

My friend whose 15yo dd is now "non-binary" said it's easier to just use their new name all the time. He says that you dont actually use he and her very often when talking to your dd only talking about them. So it can become a non-issue.

Best not to give it too much attention as you're outside the family.

Personally I just say they if that is what they want. I'm not a fan of the whole shebang but its not my circus.

@WhereYouLeftIt

"I have a similar situation with a friend, and I use their chosen pronouns because I treat it as a matter of common courtesy to address people as they wish to be addressed." If I'm using a pronoun about someone, then I am talking about them, not to them. They're not there. If they were there, I'd be using their name or 'you'. And since they're not there, I cannot 'address' them.

So that reduces using the words that they want me to use when they're not there to hear me use those words - to compelled speech. Compelled speech is not common courtesy. Indeed, it's deeply discourteous of them to attempt to compel my speech.

You've written that all using them/their pronouns so it's not like you find it difficult.

@lazylinguist

I agree with you, but the 'It's changing the rules of English grammar argument' is a pretty weak reason tbh. 'They' has been used for donkey's years in situations where gender is unspecified.

Editor here. When a person's sex is known, 'they' is not the usage. This is a request for a new usage, and in this new context where 'they/them' is requested, it is referring to a known male or female. Also, this new they/them requirement doesn't address the plural vs. singular verb usage, which makes sentences rather awkward.

@IrenetheQuaint

Tell her you're agender too - which if you're a GC feminist you probably are. She will probably be horrified by the realisation that middle-aged people can be agender. If you're lucky she will realise that gender stereotypes are a nonsense that harms everyone.

This! I'm agender because I don't ascribe to gender and wouldn't know what mine would be if asked.

Thanks @Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud I'm confused as to how it's different to non-binary though.

So you started out saying you wanted to support your friend, but one thing getting in the way of that is that you 'object to the rules of English grammar being changed for one group'. OK. You tell your friend that. I imagine she'll totally understand that correct grammar has to be a moral priority for you.

I am not at all a supporter of the trans activist agenda and especially not where children are concerned. The pronoun change is also awkward to get used and remember, I agree. However, it is not the hill I choose to die on in relation to gender issues. I have also never found that deliberately referring to someone in a way they find unpleasant wins them over and gets them to listen to your thoughtful, empathetic yet well-reasoned views on a topic. But you choose your own priorities, OP.

"You've written that all using them/their pronouns so it's not like you find it difficult."
Yes I did @PADH, because I was writing about a hypothetical person, who could therefore being of either sex. If I knew the person I was talking about, and therefore knew their sex, I would find it VERY difficult to not 'trip up' and use the sexed pronoun to refer to them.

Ten I got ripped to shreds for using they as gender neutral at uni. I was told on no uncertain terms that it’s he/her or hers/his.

They is plural.

Op - as everyone says pronouns are used if she isn’t present so it doesn’t matter what’s used then. Stick to factual ones.

Accept any name change. I spent most my childhood switching between my first and second names and various shortened versions of each. Asserting her identity via a name is just fine.

There’s no such things as agender toilets though, so she’ll need support to understand that these provisions are sex based.

Might be worth being v sure mum understands the real risks of pbs and hormone therapy if her kid decides that’s the next step.

"There’s no such things as agender toilets though, so she’ll need support to understand that these provisions are sex based."

Support to understand which loo to use. 🤦🏽‍♀️

Better than transgender. Is she smart? She realizes to opt out of womanhood she doesn't have to pretend to be a boy but 'agender' is enough.

I think it's possible to be concerned by transactivism at a political/societal level while being kind and respectful to individual trans people. Especially teenagers. You can come here and huff and puff about it but be kind to the kid, it's no effort on your part to address them as they've requested.