Nicola Sturgeon throws Joanna Cherry under the bus

[Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails]

twitter.com/nicolasturgeon/status/1354521063502336001?s=21

Personal statement condemning transphobia in response to the number of young members leaving and giving this as their reason.

Sadly true, MissBarbary.
The SNP want “freedom” from the UK in order to shackle themselves to Brussels, lose fishing rights over their own waters, and suffer the imposition of the Euro. Looking at the total mess the EU has made of covid vaccination, compared to the brilliant UK rollout (3rd fastest in the world) doesn’t give one confidence in their choice!

What kind of jobs are people in where they can just shrug of the threat of a decade of austerity? I know Scotland has a very high proportion of public sector jobs and people in those may feel safer than those in other sectors but I think they are naive to think that there won't be cuts that affect them. Brexit has already slashed our business's turnover, its made me very wary as I don't trust the current encumbents with negotiating anything remotely complicated.
But if a digression there...
I have good friends who were in the SWP at college who are now sensible, young voters change their minds, i dont think chasing them is a good look, lots of the noisiest are students who haven't been brought up here and won't even stay in Scotland long term.

We have regained our fishing rights, and lost the markets to sell them!

I'm in a rural community too, West Coast, but I wasn't born for another decade after Margots section, I suppose labels endure but I think tartan tories were mostly from their obscurity back in the 50s early 60s - I do think that tag may have clung on as a term of denigration among unionists, calling someone a tory is not a term of endearment in Scotland!

“I mean, NS doesn't really give much of a fuck about nonbinary rights, let's not kid ourselves. NS wants independence”

I’m becoming persuaded by the arguments from commentators like Craig Murray and Wings that Nicola Sturgeon actually doesn’t want independence - and that this is the issue at the heart of the war on Alex Salmon and Cherry, who is aligned with Salmond and is backing the current legal hearing to establish whether a S30 order is the only route to a legitimate referendum.

I’d much rather see Cherry in charge of the party.

*Salmond. Oh for an edit button.

I agree with your assessment of Sturgeon

@Babdoc

Sadly true, MissBarbary. The SNP want “freedom” from the UK in order to shackle themselves to Brussels, lose fishing rights over their own waters, and suffer the imposition of the Euro. Looking at the total mess the EU has made of covid vaccination, compared to the brilliant UK rollout (3rd fastest in the world) doesn’t give one confidence in their choice!

This thread is in FWR because it’s about a female party leader failing to support a gender critical colleague who has tried to defend women’s sex based rights.

Strident opinions about independence aren’t relevant here.

@BlackForestCake

BuffysBigSister you can vote for the ISP. They are female led and support women. Better than not voting even if they don't get a seat.

I don't know much about them but will do some reading. I like my local MSP and MP (both SNP). They've not been vocal on this issue yet and I don't think I can face checking today if they have also gone down in my estimation.

I mean - it’s not AIBU, it’s bloody rude to call participants in this discussion “deluded separatists.”

Article in the Times:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8f06ac6a-615a-11eb-8bcc-6c1a7cf205dd?shareToken=d7a50740b8473d37506fba630a43fad0

You (general you) call trans activists deluded and delusional and worse. I think following the separatist mantra is as deluded and dependent on blind faith as anything in trans rights.

I think trying to separate this one narrow issue , which clearly concerns you and clearly is inextricably tied to separatist policies and at the forefront of policies being pushed by the SNP, from separatism is bizarre. If you (general you) vote for separatism you (general you) are going to get this too.

Thanks Igneococcus

Their resignations followed the decision of Humza Yousaf, the justice secretary, to table an amendment to the hate crime bill, enabling trans campaigners to be challenged in debate without their critics facing the threat of arrest for a hate crime.
Yep resigning because of proposals that people shouldn’t be arrested for stating facts

That sentence caught my eye too Gibbons how can they not see how bad this is?

How do we check where our MSPs stand on this? Other than writing to them. Mine has not said anything publicly that I know of. My MP is one of the ones who's nasty about Terfs so no mystery there.
Interestingly scrolled down quite far on the Twitter thread and can't across the video of a very young NS requesting caution about the removal of section 28 in Scotland, i should probably watch it again to make sure i heard right because i was watching in bed with the sound down to avoid disturbing DH and Im a bit deaf...

@HubertHerbert they are called the Tartan Tories because in 1979 the 11 SNP MPs did a deal with Margaret Thatcher to vote with the Tories so that she could bring down Jim Callaghan's government.

Their resignations followed the decision of Humza Yousaf, the justice secretary, to table an amendment to the hate crime bill, enabling trans campaigners to be challenged in debate without their critics facing the threat of arrest for a hate crime.

Anyone know what the text of Humza Yousaf's amendment was? I can't face Twitter today.

Their resignations followed the decision of Humza Yousaf, the justice secretary, to table an amendment to the hate crime bill, enabling trans campaigners to be challenged in debate without their critics facing the threat of arrest for a hate crime.

Excellent journalism there! Accurately captures the issue. 😂😂😂
I really wish I could see the face of someone who isn't aware of the onslaught on women's rights reading that line and going .... Huh?!

Ooohh Wbeezer please share the link here to the video or the Twitter post please.

Quite @MissBarbary. There are a small number of honest nationalists who acknowledge that the country will be poorer but for them it is a worthy sacrifice - this to my mind is an honourable position. Not something I would ever sign up to, but logical and fact based.

However, the vast bulk of Scottish independence supporters say they believe they are going to be the same or better off, and that magical thinking like modern monetary theory is going be a salve to the country's dire finances.

If you are willing to go along with something so fanciful and untrue as a foundational part of your belief, then is it any wonder than TWAW also becomes part of that political movement? It isn't about fact, narratives or postures are deployed in service of nationalism (ie evil English tories being transphobic therefore virtuous Scotland isn't transphobic). And also, it is about factionalism as noted.

Can't help think that Ms Sturgeon did this last night to deflect from the shit she's up to her neck in with Salmond and the poor roll out of vaccines.

I agree with Nicola Sturgeon that trans people should be safe secure and valued for who they are. Of course they should.

However I’d bloody love her to say that same sentence with ‘women’ in the place of ‘trans people’

And she doesn’t. And will not back those who say that women matter too.

You are standing up against injustice?

Admirable.

But only if you stand up for injustice for all and do not throw the rights of women under the bus.

Inclusion does not mean exclusion.

I’m quite frankly sick of being accused of being transphobic just because I would like to retain the rights I have had all my life.

@Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails

I mean - it’s not AIBU, it’s bloody rude to call participants in this discussion “deluded separatists.”

Par for the course I'm afraid. I've been in that debate for seven years now and the same level of incivility that dominates in most other spheres of online discourse is prevalent here, too.

It doesn't matter that both outside of the Anglosphere and inside there are far more economists who know an independent small state as rich in resources as Scotland is viable (and no, I'm not thinking of oil and gas which makes up less than 7% of our GDP). It doesn't matter that recent history knows many examples of small countries thriving after independence or that European small countries in particular are thriving regardless of their size. Or that the claim that Scotland cannot possibly thrive because its economy isn't thriving now is an argument for change and against the status quo.

This is an emotional and emotive issue, and unfortunately, fear of the outcome one does not wish to happen leads to people lashing out. Don't take it to heart.

P.S. In my view, the most damaging issue to the independence movement is the Scottish Government's position on women's sex-based rights. I've lost count of the number of veteran independence campaigners who have told me that if they are now asked to choose between an independent Scotland where those rights don't exist or staying in this Union where they do, their sex-based rights have to take precedence. And certainly within the movement, the same thing is happening that has happened in the history of all political movements - women are told to put the fight for their own rights on hold until after the indy movement has achieved its aims. And then, honest promise, their male comrades will join them in their fight for women's rights. We all know what to make of that promise.

So, with a ruling party drunk on the power they have as a devolved government which has no real appetite for an independent Scotland where other parties will come to the fore again, and its government support for a movement seeking to dismantle women's rights, those worried about the independence movement succeeding have little to fear right now.

Some of the abuse Joanna gets

I wonder if NS is happy about abuse like this...

It would seem that the vote really did not go their way. Shame eh...