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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Transwomen' (though not 'transmen' welcome at Ann Summers parties. Love balls.

182 replies

Defaultname · 23/01/2021 22:19

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9179371/Ann-Summer-chief-says-transgender-women-welcome-sales-parties-wants-empower-them.html

OP posts:
Quaagars · 24/01/2021 14:46

Laughing and taking the piss online is now transphobic.

Er, 'cos that's what I said Confused Hmm

I have been to an AS party, many years ago

Same, been to a couple, also many years ago, wouldn't bother me if there were trans women there.

Lucieintheskye · 24/01/2021 14:56

@ItsLateHumpty

Actually Quaagars you’re being short sighted and both you and Ann Summers are being transphobic.

All their cock rings use he / him pronouns which is exclusive language and othering. They also (like you seem to be) haven’t allowed for men who don’t have cocks.
It seems very much like you are both saying if you have a cock you’re a man. And to be a man you must have a cock.

I hope that no trans woman goes to one of their parties and gets triggered when one of the sex toys designed for their bodies is aimed at men only.

You must both do better.

This.
Covidcorvid · 24/01/2021 14:57

@LApprentiSorcier

I’m saying that generally only men have a fetish which involves making others feel uncomfortable. I’ve seen and read about plenty of examples. Always male perpetrators.

Or only males who get caught ...

I say again, you have no idea what is going on inside anyone's head at an event like this. You are making assumptions based on:

Male or transwoman: Potential festishist
Woman: Person who would never dream of having sexual thoughts about anyone else.

Not true. How do you know I don’t have plenty of fetishes of my own? You’re making assumptions about me.

But it’s only men who have flashed at me, who have wanked infront of me while walking down the street. It’s only been a man who got into a gym jacuzzi, sat next to me and started wanking.

SqueakyCarrots · 24/01/2021 15:09

Where have I claimed there’s anything wrong with femininity?

I think it’d be a great thing if males were socialised into being caring and gentle and putting others first.

Or do you mean the outside trappings of femininity? I just said upthread I like nice lingerie, how is that abhorring femininity?

There’s is nothing scientific that says femininity is inherent to being born female, or that masculinity is inherent to being born male. This is what’s meant by ‘one is not born but becomes a woman’. Sex role stereotype socialisation begins immediately and is overwhelming influential. A great deal of how women are socialised is to the benefit of men- so we will put our needs last, so we can look the way they tell us too. Our choices and preferences don’t develop in a vacuum. If the leading trend in porn was women with a full bush and hairy legs a great deal more of us would think that’s our preference. Being able to evaluate the affect of that isn’t any criticism of femininity itself, I shave my legs, I like the way it feels, I like doing it when I deep condition my hair and use a body scrub and body oil. I do this because it pleases me, but I’m aware the fact it pleases me didn’t develop with zero influence. Critiquing the influence and affect on women as a group isn’t any call for women to burn their bras and chuck away razors. The personal is not always the political and where it is it’s entirely possible to ustilise critical thinking about the affect of that on women as a group, while still taking part in the femininity being critiqued. We live in an unequal society, there is no feminist choice within that structure, not shaving my legs or shaving my legs contributes to women’s rights not a fuck. But I can still understand the beauty myth and be informed.

Substitute any action of femininity you like with shaving legs or whatever.

No one is deriding anyone liking ‘feminine’ things, we’re just aware that they have fuck all to do with the reality that we are stuck being female even if we discarded every bit of ‘femininity’ there is. We are still stuck at the mercy of our biology and the biology of the men who use our physically weaker bodies against us as their socialisation teachers them they are entitled to.

On fwr the issue will always be with masculinity or with the anti science anti fact myth that there’s anything inherent about femininity and being female or masculinity and being male.

EdgeOfACoin · 24/01/2021 15:12

Personally, I would never go to an Ann Summers party and don't really care who goes or doesn't go. Are they even necessary these days? You can get everything online now.

I do think that this is an issue that will reach a natural resolution. The sort of person who is comfortable going to an AS party is likely to feel comfortable with transgender attendees. Provided the transgender attendees are respectful and don't make anyone else feel uncomfortable, nobody is going to mind. The women who do mind will stop going, but will probably be a minority.

I can see a possible issue with a certain type of mtf transitioner (like the ones who post on the Girls Like Us page) who really do fetishise the female experience. If they start setting up AS parties or start wangling invites to AS parties, the entire ethos will change. At that point AS reps may feel uncomfortable hosting and switch to other MLMs to make money. Ordinary women might stop attending the parties, at which point the AS business model would fail.

However, honestly, this is not the biggest priority for me when it comes to women-only spaces.

On the other discussion points, I'm pretty sure it's been well-documented that males engage more in fetishes than women. Fetishes are not the same as 'sexy thoughts'. It really is disingenuous to say that makes and females engage in fetishes at anything like the same level.

Defaultname · 24/01/2021 15:28

EdgeOfACoin said "The sort of person who is comfortable going to an AS party is likely to feel comfortable with transgender attendees."

I'd be interested in how you define this demographic. In terms of class? Education? IQ?

OP posts:
MissBarbary · 24/01/2021 15:30

@SqueakyCarrots

Actually the fact that sex role stereotypes are socialised was the dominant academic thinking a good 30 years ago when I did my degree. There’s god knows how much social studies to back it up. So much literature on the subject.

Thinking females are born submissive and gentle and caring is akin to flat earth theory.

The dominant view on here is to believe science. So we don’t buy aromatherapy cures cancer or that autism is caused by vaccines or that climate change is a myth. Believing science, and social sciences where science wouldn’t be ethical, is no different when it comes to sex and sex role stereotypes socialisation.

Thinking females are born submissive and gentle and caring is akin to flat earth theory Yet apparently being born in Scotland imparts

But thinking being born in Scotland means being born with some sort of innate, self- deprecating sense of humour is fine. Ok- is it something to do with the high standard of the Scottish water supply.

There is transphobia on this thread and it isn't coming from Quaggers, despite the determination of some posters to say it is.

Quaagars · 24/01/2021 15:34

There is transphobia on this thread and it isn't coming from Quaggers, despite the determination of some posters to say it is

Flowers thank you
I'm ignoring those posts, they're just so ridiculous lol
I mean, usually you get "duh, you're detached from reality, you don't know what biology is!"
You show that actually, you do have a grasp on reality, and you get batshit posts like OMG, you're so transphobic, do better!
Hmm Grin

SqueakyCarrots · 24/01/2021 15:35

It was a joke you numpty, never meant to be taken seriously.

Although the water does taste much better the farther north you go. Makes for much better tasting tea. Now you’ll claiming I’m saying all Scots people drink tea right?

Quaagars · 24/01/2021 15:36

It's only banter, what can't you take a joke?!
Why is that always wheeled out when someone is challenged or questioned on something?

SqueakyCarrots · 24/01/2021 15:40

People get challenged on things that matter, on jokes that laugh at disenfranchised groups, oppressed groups, marginalised groups. Not being Scottish is hardly one of those. It’s an off topic joke to laugh at how jokes don’t translate.

LApprentiSorcier · 24/01/2021 15:44

I'd be interested in how you define this demographic. In terms of class? Education? IQ?

I think social demographic is irrelevant - what people who go to a party themed on the sale of sex toys and sexy lingeries will have in common is a willingness to buy sex products in full view of other people and being comfortable to talk to others about their use of such products. Confidence, perhaps, or a lack of inhibition in respect of their sexual activities.

EdgeOfACoin · 24/01/2021 16:03

@LApprentiSorcier

I'd be interested in how you define this demographic. In terms of class? Education? IQ?

I think social demographic is irrelevant - what people who go to a party themed on the sale of sex toys and sexy lingeries will have in common is a willingness to buy sex products in full view of other people and being comfortable to talk to others about their use of such products. Confidence, perhaps, or a lack of inhibition in respect of their sexual activities.

Yeah. This.

Thanks for typing that LApprentiSorcier so I didn't have to spend time explaining Grin

MissBarbary · 24/01/2021 16:06

@Quaagars

It's only banter, what can't you take a joke?! Why is that always wheeled out when someone is challenged or questioned on something?
Indeed. And the twice used insult of "numpty" is just a joke too. Although as I don't share Carrots' uniquely Scottish sense of humour it's a joke I fail to get.

The ridiculous stereotyping of Scottish people was clearly not a joke no matter how much back pedalling is done. Her suggestion that "jokey" stereotypes don't matter if the group being stereotypically laughed at isn't an oppressed minority is however risible. All mindless stereotyping is bad.

Dragonglass · 24/01/2021 16:25

@LApprentiSorcier

I'd be interested in how you define this demographic. In terms of class? Education? IQ?

I think social demographic is irrelevant - what people who go to a party themed on the sale of sex toys and sexy lingeries will have in common is a willingness to buy sex products in full view of other people and being comfortable to talk to others about their use of such products. Confidence, perhaps, or a lack of inhibition in respect of their sexual activities.

You don't buy them in front of other people though. I went to a few AS parties years ago and I have no idea what others bought, if anything. The order forms are discreet and only the seller sees them. Unless it has changed now. The parties were fun and we had a good laugh but I would have been uncomfortable having men there.
LApprentiSorcier · 24/01/2021 16:38

The order forms are discreet and only the seller sees them.

However the ordering part is organised by the host, it's still apparent that everyone who attends is either buying or at least considering buying sex products. It's also inevitable that the products will be on display and will be talked about. And even if others don't know exactly what you've bought, you are sharing that information with the host - someone known to you.

It takes a certain level of confidence to go into that environment - especially nowadays when it's so easy to buy sex products anonymously online. Anyone with the slightest inhibition or discomfort would go online, rather than to a party.

Defaultname · 24/01/2021 16:46

@LApprentiSorcier

I'd be interested in how you define this demographic. In terms of class? Education? IQ?

I think social demographic is irrelevant - what people who go to a party themed on the sale of sex toys and sexy lingeries will have in common is a willingness to buy sex products in full view of other people and being comfortable to talk to others about their use of such products. Confidence, perhaps, or a lack of inhibition in respect of their sexual activities.

I'm assuming, since it's been pointed out that sex-toys etc. can be bought inline and in shops, including AS's own, that these parties are to a large extent seen as social activities. If I get it right, the women who attend them aren't anticipating that vibrators will be passed around between men and women. They really might not be the sort of people who,as you suggest, would be happy with this. I'm not sure that there's reason to expect this, unless they're seen as women with loose morals.

Anne Summers parties might not be as "Mens Sana in Thingummy Doodah" as open-air pools, but I think the principle's the same: Women-only environments that will now be open to men, provided the blokes say "I'm a girl too".

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/01/2021 16:47

Disagree that femininity/gender is purely sex role stereotypes

What else is it then?

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 24/01/2021 16:57

So it would be friends and acquaintances that would be invited to these parties, I'm not really understanding how a TW would get an invite unless the host actually invited them? It's not as if they're just showing up uninvited. Similarly if a TW wanted to host a party, the invitees would be aware they are transgender?

I'm not really seeing this as males encroaching on female spaces as it's voluntary.

I suppose it's possible to get invited and not know the other people attending, and discover once you've arrived that a TW is in attendance. That would indeed be awkward for women who don't subscribe to TWAW ideology.

Quaagars · 24/01/2021 17:12

Although as I don't share Carrots' uniquely Scottish sense of humour it's a joke I fail to get

You're clearly not Scottishing properly lol

LApprentiSorcier · 24/01/2021 17:33

If I get it right, the women who attend them aren't anticipating that vibrators will be passed around between men and women. They really might not be the sort of people who,as you suggest, would be happy with this. I'm not sure that there's reason to expect this, unless they're seen as women with loose morals.

Firstly, I'm not sure who would see a woman attending an Ann Summers party as having 'loose morals' unless it was someone who had just got off the train from 1950.

Secondly, even if you did associate the parties with 'loose morals' why would it make your morals any looser to pass vibrators around with men, than it would to pass them around with women? If you are coming from a place that says it's immoral to share anything sexual with someone other than your partner, I really don't see why sharing those things with women would be any 'better' than sharing them with men.

SunsetBeetch · 24/01/2021 17:35

@highame

Have transwomen been barred from having parties up until this point? I don't get this at all. Why would anyone object to a company making money. I suppose if Ann Summers make more and more trans stuff, they might be in a position to have ask (when people book a party) whether it is a transparty which Ann Summers will then be told is transphobic.

Apart from that - a non story really

Meh it's just virtue signalling isn't it??
Quaagars · 24/01/2021 17:39

I think I've wandered into the 1950s too, women with loose morals?!
What with the women have sexy underwear to indulge in mens sexual fantasies, (can't possibly be wanting to feel sexy for themselves, is that it?) and now loose morals
This is FWR, right?! Grin

littlbrowndog · 24/01/2021 17:42

I have never been to one. But if I was going and they said it was just for women

I would leave if men were there

littlbrowndog · 24/01/2021 17:43

Yeah sunset. It’s virtue signalling