Biden has completely obliterated woman’s sex based protections as he said he would do.

[yourfaceisaforeignfood]

www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/01/20/executive-order-preventing-and-combating-discrimination-on-basis-of-gender-identity-or-sexual-orientation/

“Children should be able to learn without worrying about whether they will be denied access to the restroom, the locker room, or school sports."

Biden just passed all the worst parts of the Equality Act by executive order (so without going through any legislation at all). It is limited in effect to agencies (I think) but those agencies include the Bureau of Prisons, Dept of Housing and Urban Development, Dept of Education, Dept of Labor etc

This will of course be unchallenged, even welcomed by the media. It will likely have a knock on effect around the world.

And I am so angry. So so angry. He was never the ‘least worst option’ he is the absolute worst option.

As Abigail Shriner says
twitter.com/abigailshrier/status/1352121732723666946?s=21

So how do you plan to make things fair for trans men in this sporting utopia of yours? They're going to be on the bench the vast majority of the time. Presumably that's not fair either. How will men's sport tackle this inequality?

@jj1968

It’s not just the Olympics that matters. It’s not hyperbole. Do you care about these women and girls? Be honest.

Yes, all of them, including the trans women. As such I think there should be more evidence if the current highly exclusionary nature of sport remains. But if the evidence shows trans women are not at a significant advantage, and there is a new generation of trans women coming up who may never have undergone male puberty, then I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to compete and that means sometime they might win. How many girls are sat on the bench, or never get to compete at all because naturally taller/stronger/bigger girls have taken their place? Is that fair?

Why is the burden of proof on women and girls to show that sport should remain sex-segregated? Why isn’t the burden of proof on trans athletes to show that sex-segregation has never been required? Even so, there is clear evidence of advantage. Any statement to the contrary is gaslighting.

And the suggestion that children whose bodies have been damaged by puberty blockers and cross sex hormones will be physically able to, and willing to participate in competitive sport is just fantasy.

Girls don’t mind being excluded at the expense of other girls. Yes it’s fair, they know it is. No one minds.

The argument appears to boil down to "I don't much like sport or know anything much about it, but I do know we should completely change it so no-one suffers hurty-feelz."

That's the whole thing in a nutshell, isn't it? No matter how important issue xyz is to women, if male people feel hurt or excluded by the way xyz is currently arranged, women must move over, centre male people and shut the fuck up. It's part of being kind.

Fuck that for a game of soldiers. There's 3.5 billion of us. We are human beings. We deserve rights of our own, not grace and favour from men when it suits them, only to have those rights snatched away when men decide it no longer suits them.

As a counterpoint, can you name a single ftm transitioner who has beaten a male in a top-level sporting competition? If not, why not?

The most successful trans athlete in the US is a trans man who competes against other men: www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/sports/chris-mosier-trans-athlete-olympic-trials.html

There are plenty women living with abusive men who believe his lies about changing and loving them, until they just can’t anymore.

There are plenty prostitutes who believe they love their job and it’s liberating and not harmful and should be legalised and they say they’ve never been raped or beaten. Until they are.

Just because ‘plenty’ women buy twaw and don’t see the danger in self Id doesn’t mean they won’t ten years down the line.

So those of us who get it will argue for the protection of all women’s rights, for us and for women who don’t feel the same way incase they need to access them down the line. The same way we’d argue for abortion to be legal for all women, even those who are pro life, incase they need one in future.

We don’t need all women to agree with us to argue for all women’s rights.

Honestly I'm not sure. I don't really know enough about the case. I think it probably needs to be looked at on a sport by sport basis, and that there should be more research done on the impact of hormones etc.

If you know little about it then you bring little value to the conversation, apart from to try and derail it. As always.

Girls don’t mind being excluded at the expense of other girls. Yes it’s fair, they know it is. No one minds.

Lots of feminists mind. There's a wealth of feminist literature criticising the exclusionary nature of competitive sports.

Why can't males be excluded?

I'm beginning to think "well, it hasn't affected the Olympics yet" should be on a bingo card.

For some sports, it might affect the highest levels of the sport and yet never affect the Olympics because those sports aren't included in the Olympics.

The 2016 Olympics only included 28 sports, according to wikipedia. How comprehensive do people think it is?

Fairness still matters, whether or not there is a chance of the contest being broadcast on terrestrial TV as part of the Olympics coverage.

For example, I don't think fell-running is in there... Why do I bring it up, I hear you ask?

In Easter 1998 Jeska came out to her parents as atrans woman, and had agonadectomyin 2000. She went on to studygender studiesatLeeds University. While at Leeds, she took up fell-running, finding immediate success, winning the Blackshaw Head fell race in 2008.[7]She later joined Todmorden Harriers athletics club, and went on to win the 2010Three Shires Fell Race, the 2011Liverpool Half Marathon, the 2010, 2011, and 2012English, and 2012British Fell Running Championships.[2]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Jeska

Jj- again- why is your first response to ‘seeing lies and slurs’ to ‘provide balance’ not challenge said lies and slurs?

If one of my kids lied I wouldn’t jump to point out that the other lied last week to provide balance, or say right your sister just lied so your allowed to hit me today to provide balance. I’d address the behaviour of the one who lied today.

The idea anyone sees lies and slurs and instead of challenging said lies and slurs jumps into action to ‘provide balance’ is very disingenuous. Almost like you know fine well you don’t have a valid point. Not addressing this question for the third time also smacks of having no valid answer.

I'm beginning to think "well, it hasn't affected the Olympics yet" should be on a bingo card

Except when it does it won't count because it wasn't reported in the right newspaper by the right journalist, at midnight on a full moon while it was showing exactly 341.6 miles away.

The goal posts for evidence to be accepted are constantly moving.

There has never been a trans Olympian, no trans women had been selected on the US team to compete at 2020 (although COVID halted the selections so the team was not complete).

Athletics careers take time to build, starting in childhood. Until very recently, the national rules for sex-segregated sports pretty much the world over did not permit biologically-male trans athletes to compete as women at any level, so there has not yet been enough time for most trans athletes to reach the stage of applying to a national team. We are seeing the impact on women and girls at the local levels of the sport already, but it will take a few years for the trans athletes currently displacing teenage girls from the podium at county and state level to reach the stage of their careers where they are displacing adult women from the podium at international level.

there is a new generation of trans women coming up who may never have undergone male puberty, then I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to compete and that means sometime they might win.

1. Long-term use of puberty blockers raises questions about fairness and safety of both the trans athlete and the other athletes involved. The sex hormone supression Lupron causes is known to weaken bones and it might not be safe for someone who was subjected to the (off-label, experimental) use of Lupron as a child to compete in contact sports at all because of the fracture risk. The differences in bone mass caused by the absence of natural sex hormones is sufficient that forensic anthropologists can tell whether a male skeleton was a eunuch and when during his life he was castrated.
2. "Some kids were given experimental drugs so risky that a British court ruled against their use, so let's end women's sports" doesn't have very good optics as arguments go.

How many girls are sat on the bench, or never get to compete at all because naturally taller/stronger/bigger girls have taken their place? Is that fair?

1. You are conflating sexual dimorphism with variations within a sex class. They aren't comparable. Women's hips are fundamentally different, for starters.
2. Many sports have weight, age, height, and experience (as in novice, amateur, pro, etc) categories in addition to sex categories to allow a greater diversity of athletes to compete with a reasonable chance of winning against people of similar size and training level.

The idea anyone sees lies and slurs and instead of challenging said lies and slurs jumps into action to ‘provide balance’ is very disingenuous. Almost like you know fine well you don’t have a valid point. Not addressing this question for the third time also smacks of having no valid answer.

When I say providing balance I mean challenging the lie and slurs. I think it is a slur that Biden's policies will erase women for example, and I think that is demonstrated by the fact its already the law in many states and women, women's right and feminism clearly still exist.

Besides, it’s likely trans athletes have been at the Olympics but we don’t know who they are.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3671937/Transgender-British-athletes-born-men-set-make-Olympic-history-competing-games-women.html

And we never will because to reveal it would be devastating to those women who lost out as a result.

Women's hips are fundamentally different, for starters.

Women's hips are fundamentally different from men's, for starters.

This one is an interesting reversal of the usual stories.

www.cbc.ca/radio/docproject/the-teens-are-alright-1.5877661/this-teen-was-a-celebrated-ringette-goalie-in-quebec-until-the-league-learned-he-was-transgender-1.5877666

The year Ovenden-Beaudry came out as male, he also registered with his women's ringette team as male — something unprecedented as far as he knew.

At first, the association allowed him to continue to play. But eventually they gave him no choice but to leave his team — and the chance to become a champion — behind.

"I was losing part of myself. And that's a really hard thing to mourn," he told The Doc Project.

Now personally I think Dawson, provided they weren't taking T, should have been allowed to stay on the team. It makes sense if you recognise sports are segregated by sex not identity.

Goes to show these inclusion policies are often not benefitting female trans people. It's not the first time I've heard of transitioning females wanting to stay within women's groups or sports or continue using women's facilities. I don't think it's that rare.

women, women's right and feminism clearly still exist.

The right of school girls to privacy from the male gaze when getting changed has already been erased in the States. The right of homeless women to a male-free shower at the night shelter has already been erased. The right of teen girls to compete in foot racing against only other girls has already been erased. When you claim that women's rights still exist, you are lying because some have already been removed.

Only you haven’t challenged any of the points. You squirm out of all the direct questions- ‘don’t really know much bout that’ ‘need to do more research’.

That’s not challenging anything. That’s just blah blah vapour.

‘Women’s rights still exist’ well except in sports. You really consider fallon fox a woman? You think a top female boxer getting her eye socket broken is the normal result of a fair fight with another woman? What if Mike Tyson decides to identify as a woman? Will you welcome him into womanhood and cheer as a convicted rapist murders a woman boxer in the ring then goes and showers with the rest of the women boxers?

If these are lies and slurs challenge them. Directly, not with some flimsy wet-blanket statement that adds nothing to the discussion.

Until very recently, the national rules for sex-segregated sports pretty much the world over did not permit biologically-male trans athletes to compete as women at any level, so there has not yet been enough time for most trans athletes to reach the stage of applying to a national team.

Renee Richards won the right in court to play in the US women's open in 1977.

Lots of feminists mind. There's a wealth of feminist literature criticising the exclusionary nature of competitive sports.

High-performing athletes DO care about keeping sports competitive...it's the point of competing. If any feminist says she hates that top levels of adult sports are so competitive, I highly doubt that feminist is an athlete.

Let's pretend you want to discuss non-competitive sporting events, where you play to have fun and get exercise and no one keeps score. In this scenario, just like in competitive sports, it's equally risk for transwomen and men to play contact sports w/ other females. Why? Because it's DANGEROUS.

The vast majority of men know that when they are playing contact sports for fun w/ other women, they don't physically attack them as hard as they can. Why? Because they know their strength and don't want to hurt women. Are PP suggesting transwomen do not know their own strength and want to hurt people? Imagine an adult demanding they be allowed to play basketball with 7-year-olds and then playing as strongly as they could. It would be dangerous and it would be cheating.

@NotBadConsidering

Besides, it’s likely trans athletes have been at the Olympics but we don’t know who they are.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3671937/Transgender-British-athletes-born-men-set-make-Olympic-history-competing-games-women.html

And we never will because to reveal it would be devastating to those women who lost out as a result.

But you can always tell right? So should be easy to spot them.

@jj1968

The idea anyone sees lies and slurs and instead of challenging said lies and slurs jumps into action to ‘provide balance’ is very disingenuous. Almost like you know fine well you don’t have a valid point. Not addressing this question for the third time also smacks of having no valid answer.

When I say providing balance I mean challenging the lie and slurs. I think it is a slur that Biden's policies will erase women for example, and I think that is demonstrated by the fact its already the law in many states and women, women's right and feminism clearly still exist.

Women having opinions about political policies are expressing slurs...

I always thought it was a bit OTT when other feminists said that under patriarchy women's words were treated as violence and men's physical violence was excused and minimised.

Yet again, I realise that the other, older feminists were right!

Sorry, mesdames.

When Laurel Hubbard won weightlifting gold in Samoa, Feagaiga Stowers, an 18 year old indigenous Samoan woman, a survivor of abuse, was denied gold at her home games. Every other woman who finished below Hubbard had their place lowered by one.

This example really boils my blood. A mediocre, privileged white man cheated an indigenous Samoan woman of her rightful win and all the honors she deserved. I really, really hope that some day they can right this racist, sexist wrong.

Women having opinions about political policies are expressing slurs

It's perfectly possible for a political opinion to be a slur. Saying we should refuse to accept refugees because all refugees are terrorists is a slur. As is claiming that trans inclusion represents a threat to women so great it will mean the end of women completely. There is no evidence for either of these positions and considerable evidence that when trans inclusion policies have been pursued, in Ireland, Argentina, much of the US and the UK, and countless other countries and regions, most women have barely even noticed.

I gave you an example..

The women who had her career ended ajd 7 staples after having to fight a male opponent
Is that not harm?

What has to happen?