Gender critical men

[MakeWorkYourNewFavourite]

I'm still trying to get my head around things, so please go easy on me. My eyes have been opened to trans ideology and I'm getting worried about my daughter's future. I've also noticed preferred pronouns slipping in at the end of email signatures... just little things, but I fear it's so insidious that it'll be too late before the wider public takes note.

I was just wondering if the key to this whole mess would be to get men onside? Adult, male humans. Do they want to be putting he/him on the end of emails? Do they want their daughters going into toilets/on school trips/into women's health centres with men? Do they want their sons being told they could have female brains? Do they want their daughters binding their breast? Just a few example, but you know what I mean.

I understand that this issue affects women massively. But we're not alone. It seems we're the only ones trying to fight it. Or... we're fighting it on different terms. Is that it? Do gender critical men tend to be the right wing, Christian types? Are there any men out there who feel the same concerns as us.... not necessarily on behalf of women... but for themselves? Or for their daughters and sons?

I don't know if I've made myself clear. But, I suppose my point is that this has become a feminist issue whereas perhaps it should be an everyone issue? If it's all wokekind against radical feminists, we're not going to get anywhere. I'm as woke as fuck except on this issue. There have got to be more wokies (and men) who just haven't thought about it. They're just trying to be kind.

There are men who are against gender ideology, when they speak up they tend to not get rape and death threats, so yes we need more of them and we need them to speak up.

My DH certainly is on-side. He could never speak out about it though (or any contentious issue tbf) because he'd lose his job.

I think they agree with us, but don't feel as strongly - 'no skin in the game' - it doesn't punch them in the gut.

There's certainly plenty of men on twitter who support us, men on the left too, and ime, if you speak to them in RL, they tend to as well.

There are a number of GC men on Twitter. But tbh I think many don’t care because it doesn’t affect them so much, and many are closet misogynists so the whole gender thing gives them a lovely chance to have a go at women and offload a shitload of their hate while getting woke points and praise.

Apart from a few woke menfolk, I don't know of any men who think TWAW, for example.
They scoff at the idea. Some of the less PC men will openly ridicule it.
However, I'm not sure they see it as a serious issue, which affects people negatively.
I'm sure more could and will be brought on board once they see the real effects.

my DH gets it - it was the sport thing that did it, but there's a difference between him getting it and him openly trying to do something about it.

Many men still see it as a thing that affects a tiny number of people i.e. trans people and not an issue affecting 51% of the population i.e. women

even if they do see that, they see it as not their issue

Im thankful for the GC men that do stand up and say "this is not acceptable" but how we get more of them, I just dont know

My DP is onside. He follows Save Women's Sports and FairPlay for a Women on Facebook and comments on their posts.
I don't think any of his male friends engage though.

Daley Thompson is gender critical and supports Sharron Davies publicly. More sportsmen need to get involved.
I agree we need more men supporting us. And more women.

I'm not on Twitter very much. My account is linked to my profession (freelance), so I can't really go around telling the world what I think about stuff. I should set up a personal account and start exploring what's out there. I feel very much behind the times.

Maybe when men are asked on forms what gender they identify with or get asked to use unisex toilets or add preferred pronouns to their email signatures, more of them will understand the way this is going. And, like a PP has said, more women too!

I've been reading Irreversible Damage this week and it's so worrying. It's all I can think about!

This has never really affected me (apart from on an OLD site once, when a man asked me how I felt about it... )But I can't have my DD3 being told that she's maybe a boy trapped inside a female body just because she likes dinosaurs and football. This hasn't happened yet, but it's the way things could be going. It seems like this massive big deal that nobody's paying much attention to.

What are some good sites I could use to become more active? Could you give me some pointers, please? Thanks for your responses. :-)

There does appear to be growing numbers of men speaking out. It usually takes a lot for men to get involved in something. The freedom of speech / freedom to not be compelled angle does work well in convincing men, and sports is the easiest route to opening eyes. Like women, many men who have concerns also worry about their jobs so try to avoid public confrontation about it.

For many years, feminism or feminists in general have told men to butt out of 'women's issues'; that they don't have a right to an opinion on matters that affect women; they have nothing valuable to contribute to discussions especially if they are a straight, white male. So it's understandable that many will switch off and not bother or feel reticent to speak up in case they are told they are mansplaining or imposing their own outdated, patriarchal views (such as men and women are not the same, especially in terms of biology).
So it's slightly awkward now when there's calls for men to do something because ultimately they are the only ones who can stop the ideological juggernaut if they decide, in large enough numbers, to put their foot down and say No.

Yeah, I can see that. But, rather than asking them for help, I guess it's about pointing out that this isn't just a women's issue. It has a different effect on women, but surely men don't want their sons, as teenagers, being told they could be gender dysphoric because they like art or singing... or are gay? This is the sort of thing that's going on. It's madness. I know it's happening to teenage girls in greater numbers, but it's still a male issue, too. It really is.

I think I'm just in shock. It's like there's a house on fire and I'm looking around wondering why nobody's going to put it out. I'm only just starting to realise and understand the extent of this.

Could we say it's not a women's issue? But a child issue? That's the feeling I get at the moment. Maybe we need two separate debates. I'm much more worried about my daughter than I am about myself. I feel I can stand up for myself and I'd refuse to say I was any gender. I'm biologically female and that's pretty evident when you look at me even if I shave my head and wear a sackcloth. We can all tell what I am. People have known what I am for 40 odd years.

There are many layers to this, but I think we really need everyone to be on board for the kids. That's not a feminist issue, is it?

Some good resources -

As already mentioned: Fair play for women and Save women's sports.

Transgender Trend. Womensplaceuk.org. The Radical Notion (new feminist magazine on subscription). Graham Linehan's website and newsletter.

There's definitely lots of layers to this, MakeWorkYourNewFavourite which is why it's been so hard to get people to understand just how deep the problems go. It takes quite a while to wrap your head around it all and most people don't have the time to look into it, so don't worry if you feel shocked at the complexity or the lack of awareness.

There are more articles in mainstream media now, especially from the centre-right, in highlighting the impact on free speech, safeguarding for children etc so I think more people are becoming aware of the ramifications.

When I started looking into all of this gender stuff over three years ago, I also thought at first it was some minor feminist spat and quite a niche issue that didn't really make sense. Of course lots has moved on since then and I had no idea of the extent of policy capture.

The sad truth is that for many people this is still a fringe issue. There are bigger concerns in people's day-to-day lives like economic stuff, and now with the pandemic and the long-term effects of it on our society.

Another sad fact is that from (limited) surveys, it does seem that women, especially younger women, are easily in thrall to this ideology. Men as a rule of thumb, including young men, don't buy all this guff about trans women being women and biology being a social construct etc, so I really think most men won't be affected by the sort of changes that are happening. They are much better at saying no and telling others to piss off. And the trans activists don't harass them because they know they can't intimidate men, so they target women instead.

Could we say it's not a women's issue? But a child issue?

This is currently my tack. DH is slowly getting his head round it. Bought him Irreversible Damage by AS. I am hoping this will dramatically accelerate his understanding that he does have skin in the game as a father to school age DDs.

IME many men are apprehensive about getting involved because they see it as a woman issue.

There are some stalwarts on Twitter, though, and all the men I know in rl are gc, although most wouldn't say anything publically.

Partly because they're not so threatened/invested and partly for fear of interfering, as I understand it.

Women and girls are the primary target group of gender ideologues. If the majority of women and girls are persuaded to “be kind” and not ask questions and enough are persuaded to be vocally strongly supportive of making women’s groups and spaces mixed sex then men who aren’t convinced will be like “well clearly women are very supportive of this movement so what can we men say about it” shrug shoulders and get on with their own thing.

At some point both men and women will suffer from the authoritarian approach to compelled speech and silencing.

If things carry on as they are with gender identity replacing sex, it could lead to profound changes in the functioning of society which will impact all of us.

I became aware of this current situation because of Rachel McKinnon the cyclist. I first posted on a cycle racing forum, where I knew some of the people (ex racers from the seventies and eighties). I was very surprised that a sizeable number of posters considered it OK for a transwoman to compete against women, that really shocked me.
So, I Googled for more information and came across posts from Mumsnet, read them and discovered that this went far deeper than sports. I read about Lily Madigan who had become a women's officer in the Labour party, then about Karen White and that was it.
I think people are right, when they say a lot of men are not bothered, unfortunately some are openly amused by it.

Some of us care. I'm a man. Not actually said anything either way on here, but as I've been more active than normal last few days, I think I'm past the point I should probably out myself, for those who haven't already guessed from my prose style. (And people probably recognise my name enough for it to be worthwhile).

I can see women are being utterly screwed here. It's ridiculous. I didn't really understand how sexist/misogynist many men (and indeed women) are until I saw how many were willing to go along with this insult. As Jane Clare Jones has said - it "the biggest patriarchal unmasking imaginable".

I guess I'm probably more female-identified than most men. Only sisters, single-parent mother, distant relationship to father. So I do not find it hard to believe that "women are people". But apparently a lot of people do.

So I do what I can, digging into data and providing links. Been following closely for a few years now (since the Hyde Park Corner assault), so now quite good at being able to dig up stuff. And I can afford to fund quite a lot. Seems the least I can do.

My female DP is kind of fed up with me going on about it :) Certainly agrees, but maybe a bit less obsessed...

I don't really know what to advise with getting men on board though. I would hazard a guess that the number of handmaidens is intimidating. I think most men would say "this is bollocks" to other men, but would be less willing to say that to a libfem woman. They do not want to be a man fighting women on this. And if two groups of women are fighting, right, most of us will just leave you to it. Unless they can be forced to pay attention enough to see how wrong one side is.

The injustice here is so huge, it's hard to see why that isn't happening, but I think that gets into broader questions about the whole Woke pseudo-reality thing.

I think it may come to GC women taking this more to men and demonstrating this isn't an equal burden on both sexes with the everything by gender approach, but a very unequal and disadvantaging burden on women only. I've said for years I think there may have to be a large movement of GC women who identify as men - bearing in mind of course that men have long hair, can wear what they like, wear make up if they want to, have kids in buggies, who are you to police how I express my masculinity etc and no change is needed at all beyond using the spaces of choice and verbally or on forms self identifying.

I suspect as Man Friday's excellent campaign immediately demonstrated, men won't tolerate this happening to their resources and their spaces, and when men say no everyone listens.

It makes the point.

It's also been an interesting view into the theories of male vs female socialisation, and that to be male in the UK at this time allows a person to not have to be bothered by or interested in anything that doesn't directly impinge on them. There is no expectation to be everyone's dad, or to be responsible for others' needs and feelings, or taboo around behaving in a way seen as only self interested. So my DF for instance, initially listened to me ranting on this and shrugged and said frankly "Well it doesn't affect me, does it, so I haven't really bothered reading about it."

When I pointed out the impact on his daughters and grandaughters, and he began to visualise changing rooms and hospital wards, he was livid, and wrote to his MP. However sadly, I'm well aware, what I did was trigger his 'your personal property is endangered by other males' system as opposed to any interest in the rights of women not to be compulsory accessories in more important male lives. Because that bit doesn't affect him.

I'm becoming extremely sex dysphoric. I wasn't until all this. But now I feel trapped in a biological body that I have no problem living with at all, but which compels me to be a servicehuman and shut up about the absolute injustice of it so that male humans may benefit in numerous ways. And I can identify all I like as someone as equally human as male humans, but no one is going to care, because its all sex based thinking .

It's not the case that men don't care, or that it doesn't affect them (men have wives, mothers, daughters etc. and we do see the impact)

But getting started on this is a very bumpy and rough ride. I've been involved with this a long time now, and have lost count of the number of times I've been told by GC feminists that I have no right to an opinion on the subject, and that none of it affects me. Then there are people like Jean Hatchet who have been very vocal that these issues must be women-led fights and that men's ONLY role should be lifting up women or criticizing other men and must be otherwise invisible (regardless of what else you might be bringing to the table).

Other men see this and just say, "Oh God - why do you even bother getting involved mate? Leave them to it, I say..."

Another stereotype is that men just effortlessly swan through life's opportunities and thus don't care about such matters. But most men I know are actually acutely aware that their livelihood keeps the family financially viable and if that goes, their marriage will likely go down the pan too. Unemployed men are not considered desirable, especially if it was caused through them having strong personal principles as it makes them a liability and not a good choice for supporting a family.

As a man, you also have to take it as a given that when attempting to engage in the conversation, a significant portion of that group will pretend that you don't exist or be openly hostile.

As for starting up a new group (a common suggestion) called, "Men for Women's Rights" or whatever, you'll find that NO man - nor indeed most women - would trust any man starting such a thing. They'd be right not to as well, as it's a magnet for entirely the wrong kind of man.

For as long as wokesters can get a man fired, men actually have EVERYTHING to lose by getting directly involved in this, and as such, will often find that the better option is to quietly support a woman in their life who is doing so.

I think PPs are correct that men tend to think TWAW is just rubbish a bit more than women. Many of the gobby (non trans) male TRAs strike me as in it for the performance of virtue (though certainly some women do the same).

That does not mean that most men are GC. It's a lot easier to think that sex-sterotypes are reflections of the natural order when you benefit from them. It took me a lot of listening to really appreciate some of the things I've just never experienced.

There are some barriers to men participating- most of the online spaces where real organisation occurs are women only. Most GC men don't want to butt in or speak over women. Even here a number of members would say men shouldn't be on FWR.

I think there is scope for men to be helpful but anything specific should be organised or directed by the women leading things, even if men are doing the work.

The vast majority of dads will be concerned about their daughters undressing in front of male born people in changing rooms, mixed sex loos and their lads who like artistic or nurturing activities being told they are really girls. The vast majority of decent men would not want their wives, sisters or mums to be in a mixed sex hospital ward . This is what it comes down to. If you not would be happy for your 13 year old daughter to share a changing room and strip naked in front of a person with intact male genitalia then you are a gender critical man

As for starting up a new group (a common suggestion) called, "Men for Women's Rights" or whatever, you'll find that NO man - nor indeed most women - would trust any man starting such a thing. They'd be right not to as well, as it's a magnet for entirely the wrong kind of man.

I agree, so I think the more likely thing is that men will get involved in an indirect fashion as part of more general "anti-Woke" campaigning. Think the Triggerpod guys, for example. The most female-centric male along those lines I'm aware of is Benjamin Boyce, and he clearly gets both praise and hostility for it from women.

I was just listening to James Lindsay today - his "The Nature of Pseudo-Reality" podcast was using "Trans Women Are Women" as the prime example of the sort of thing he was talking about more generally.

Indeed, my view is that the trans issue here is just one aspect of the Woke thing, but it's the place it's having the biggest immediate impact, so it's the one I'm active in. I think it may also be the biggest weak point - the single biggest denial of reality.

Like Lindsay, I fear the general impact of Woke stuff will be far worse than minor things like "women's right to sports" or "permanent unnecessary harm to 1000s of children". But at least those are manageable fights. Maybe by tackling those breaks from reality, we fight back more generally. I can crowdfund Keira Bell. I can't do anything about masses of crazed US people demanding a new "domestic war on terror" to fight "white supremacy" and trying to ban everyone from the Internet, and thinking it's the other side that are fascists.

Trouble with doing a list of excellent men who support women on this issue is missing people off the list. There are plenty of anonymous men on Twitter doing their bit in asking questions & calling for logic and reason. Here's a few of the more well known I can think of in five minutes...
Daley Thompson has already been mentioned. Joe Rogan has been quite clear on the dangers of allowing men to compete with women in mixed martial arts, they are not the only sportsmen to have raised the issue.

LGB Alliance had a great discussion with Malcolm Clark, Lachlan Stuart, Simon Fanshaw and James Roberts on gender ideology here

James Dreyfus, Glinner & Arty Morty do some great online discussions (with Helen Staniland too) Lewis Moonie, Andy Healey (kicked out of Green Party for safeguarding concerns) have all been quite clear about the problems with the Emporers new clothes...there are many more, my memory just won't provide them right now 🤣

Ah, a lot of those names do then show the other possible angles of attack for men - gay men addressing the homophobia. Doing it as homosexual rights, rather than women's rights.

And men like Daley Thompson and Ross Tucker doing it as a general "sports fairness" thing.

But straight, non-sporty men? Bit trickier. My thing is being the "numbers geek". Getting very upset about people making up numbers things that are blatantly false (and implausible on the face of it).

I've read some of the comments by men (here and elsewhere) and what stands out is that so few men have made the connection that this has anything to do with them.

I've only seen women get prickly with men who try to lecture us on 'what women should do'. Men who ask 'how does this affect me, or you, and what can I do' get answers.