Gender critical men

[MakeWorkYourNewFavourite]

I'm still trying to get my head around things, so please go easy on me. My eyes have been opened to trans ideology and I'm getting worried about my daughter's future. I've also noticed preferred pronouns slipping in at the end of email signatures... just little things, but I fear it's so insidious that it'll be too late before the wider public takes note.

I was just wondering if the key to this whole mess would be to get men onside? Adult, male humans. Do they want to be putting he/him on the end of emails? Do they want their daughters going into toilets/on school trips/into women's health centres with men? Do they want their sons being told they could have female brains? Do they want their daughters binding their breast? Just a few example, but you know what I mean.

I understand that this issue affects women massively. But we're not alone. It seems we're the only ones trying to fight it. Or... we're fighting it on different terms. Is that it? Do gender critical men tend to be the right wing, Christian types? Are there any men out there who feel the same concerns as us.... not necessarily on behalf of women... but for themselves? Or for their daughters and sons?

I don't know if I've made myself clear. But, I suppose my point is that this has become a feminist issue whereas perhaps it should be an everyone issue? If it's all wokekind against radical feminists, we're not going to get anywhere. I'm as woke as fuck except on this issue. There have got to be more wokies (and men) who just haven't thought about it. They're just trying to be kind.

I don’t know. Like I say, I am GC so believe TW are men and TM are women.

All I’m saying is I also accept that a proportion of them genuinely feel in the wrong body, will have found that hard and are transitioning. To what, I can’t define.

It must be possible to find a line that’s firm on the biology but also supportive where it’s a genuine need? Somehow?

Oh and incidentally, where is the accepting me for who I am, which is someone who identifies themselves as a biological adult human female, with no gender identity, an identity politics atheist, and requiring single sex spaces for any activity where I will be undressed or vulnerable, or receiving intimate care?

@MichelleofzeResistance

I think it does mean accepting people for who they are

Can you unpack that a little? Because that's the root of it for women.

If you mean accepting that some people born male prefer to identify as transwomen, and need acceptance that they will need resources and facilities apart from men's resources and facilities, have needs for example medical that are wholly specific to transwomen and no other group which should be provided, and need protection in law from harassment or discrimination based on their presenting and naming themselves in ways not in keeping with gender stereotypes?

I've never yet spoken to a GC woman who wouldn't only agree with all the above, they'd probably help campaign for it.

Or do you mean accepting that a male born person is actually a woman, who should be treated in all situations by women as if they are in fact women too, without any distinctions made or permitted by biological fact, or that the female half of the species has specific needs of their own?

Because that's where all the issues are.

So do you believe female humans are a thing with rights of their own, or do you believe female humans must accommodate and prioritise all male humans at all times and hand over their own resources and put aside their own needs to do so, regardless of the male human's agenda, and to female human detriment?

No I’d define it as your first point. A place for trans people that isn’t women’s or men’s (biology can’t change)

I know some would agree.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Oh and incidentally, where is the accepting me for who I am, which is someone who identifies themselves as a biological adult human female, with no gender identity, an identity politics atheist, and requiring single sex spaces for any activity where I will be undressed or vulnerable, or receiving intimate care?

Totally agree. Hope I’ve made myself clearer

The really sad thing is that if the goal had been facilities, resources, acceptance and safety of transwomen, and the proud identity of transwomen, most of the women here would have been involved in campaigns and fundraising.

Many of us were.

@MichelleofzeResistance

The really sad thing is that if the goal had been facilities, resources, acceptance and safety of transwomen, and the proud identity of transwomen, most of the women here would have been involved in campaigns and fundraising.

Many of us were.

Good point. Maybe the militant stance of some trans groups has polarised things and left us with “all or nothing”.

I don't know who someone is . I can't always assume they won't harm me when I am in a vulnerable situation. Like when my pants are down and I'm having a piss.

Would it be useful to draw comparisons with a person's nationality? Is that a good analogy or not? I've lived in France for 20 years, but I'm British. Now, post-Brexit, I'd like to become French. I feel French(ish). BUT, it's a great big hassle to prove that I want to be French. I have to have lived here for so long, contributed to the society, be fully integrated, speak the language, understand the history, have my birth certificate translated, pay for a language test, pay for official translators, be interviewed by the police etc. etc. And, I think that's only fair. I can't just say I'm French, or that I "feel" French... but, if I'm willing to put in the effort, they'll have me as a French citizen. I'll be French on paper, but I can't get rid of the British side of me. They will only give me dual nationality.

And I can't get rid of my accent even though I'm bilingual. Everyone knows I'm British.

There are hoops to jump through. When I jump through them, my efforts are recognised. But my past is not to forgotten. If I ever jump through the hoops, I'll have all the rights of a French person... but I won't be 100% French.

Is that a fair comparison?

Sorry, I seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent. I'm just trying to wrap my head around all this.
It's very hard to organise my thoughts.

GC man gives opinion, gets jumped on because opinion isn't pure enough.

Other GC men take note, shrug, and keep silent.

Being asked for clarity isn't being jumped on. Misreading signals?

@MephistophelesApprentice

GC man gives opinion, gets jumped on because opinion isn't pure enough.

Other GC men take note, shrug, and keep silent.

Tbf while I did feel a bit that there was an immediate “so you think they’re women then do you!!” Response, I wasn’t as clear as I should have been so some prodding is fine

@MakeWorkYourNewFavourite I said something along the lines of 'woman fight for hundred of years for equality just for a man to put on a dress and try to take what they have fought for' something like that but much better worded 😂

Someone's mental health is nothing like nationality.
Odd to make that analogy. I assume the best of everyone. But statistically an unknown person with a penis is more likely to harm me when I am in a vulnerable situation.

2020canfuckitself
I’d flip a coin on whether MN 2021 allows that post to stand (unfortunately)

@bellinisurge OK. I think analogies are often poor methods to understand things anyway. I'm just trying to draw comparisons to understand what it must feel like to want to be the opposite sex and why that can never really work.

Personally, because there are so many unisex toilets and changing rooms in France (where I live), I don't feel that threatened by the idea sharing them with TW or men. We have separate cubicles. Nobody has every seen my fanny at the pool or in a public toilet. Having said that, I might not have enjoyed going to a school with mixed-sex toilets as a teen.

For me, the problem is TW in female sports, female prisons, female shortlists (jobs and prizes), women's centres, women's refuges etc.
I also have a problem with the idea that some TW perhaps don't have gender dysphoria but a sexual preference for crossdressing. I don't feel as if I should have to be a part of that.

I also feel that the condition of gender dysphoria is a psychological illness and isn't always best dealt with by transitioning. Just like anorexia isn't best dealt with by allowing people to continue to lose weight. I feel very strongly about this when it comes to teenage girls. We need to look into whether this is a si=ocial contagion or not.

I also worry that this is going to become so popular... that I'll look like one of those loonies who refuses to allow their kids to go to sex education class if I object to my daughter being told at school that she might be a boy in a girl's body. Gender stereotypes have to be reinforced for that idea to even exist, don't they? You must be a boy if you like dinosaurs. You must be a girl if you like glitter. It just spits in the face of everythng I'm trying to teach my daughter.

I also got very cross when on a FB parenting forum I got told to rephrase my post when I mentioned the word "Women" and "breastfeeding" in the same sentence. I didn't see it coming. I got a real telling off... because "people" give birth, not "women".

So, that's where I'm at... but I still have a lot of research to do. I really don't consider myself to be bigoted or unfair. This is all just so much to take on board.

Tbf while I did feel a bit that there was an immediate “so you think they’re women then do you!!” Response, I wasn’t as clear as I should have been so some prodding is fine

And thereby in that post and this demonstrated the intention of genuine engagement and willingness for a two sided conversation, which is welcomed around here regardless of sex or identity. And demonstrating too that people posting in good faith with interest in a conversation rarely immediately ascribe negative motives to questions.

I've had my behind handed to me more than once on MN by women who didn't agree with what I said and could reason as to why. It's an equal opportunity expectation of quality of debate.

And to get back to the original point... with some of my concerns... surely it can only help to make some of this debate a "general" issue. It's not that we need men to come in and give us a "lift" or help us with the arguments (although I'll take help at this point from anyone and I'm very grateful for all your pointers on this thread)... but that, as fathers, they've got skin in the game, haven't they? And as husbands/partners. If I was a man, I wouldn't want my wife/partner, when giving birth, to be called a "birthing person" if she didn't want that.
And then there's the whole erasing of homosexuals. We can all have a say in that, can't we?

I only call out mansplaining when it's as clear as day. My boyfriend told me what a lighthouse was once.

A problem you may have on here is the target market. “Men on Mumsnet” are, I would guess, more likely to be supportive of women and women’s rights, possibly more engaged in the discussion and its challenges, maybe more likely to be ally’s.

So is your OP asking how these men can help, say more, do more? Or how men in general can/should?

Both are interesting questions

At the most basic level men can have skin in the game because gender restriction can harm men too.

My boyfriend told me what a lighthouse was once.

LMAO. I'd have let that go but then explained everyday objects for the next week.

Men need to hear it from other men.

Look at the number of blogs and comments from men saying ''its only since I had my daughter/posed as a woman online that I get it''. When its only women speaking, its a 'woman's issue.'

I'd like to know how we could all do more and say more @BillMasen. We all need to act... but we're all so scared to, aren't we?

I'm a freelancer. I translate. I don't imagine every client has time to look into my public opinions. But, one of my clients is a major publishing house (I translate novels) and I've noticed that they put their preferred pronouns at the end of their email signatures these days. I have a contract with them... as in I'm one of their invited translators and I sometimes speak on their behalf (book fairs etc.). Will I ever be asked to give me preferred pronouns? Would I dare refuse?

On the pronouns, I’m not yet sure that’s a problem I’d speak out on. Yes it’s a bit “woke” to get everyone to state, but what’s the issue with someone choosing to be called “they”.

Happy to listen and understand why I should be speaking out though.

I’m thinking of self Id, keeping women’s spaces safe, sport. All more important and I’d definitely discuss with other men.

I guess my pronoun concern is that pronouns are historically sex based. Calling someone they is fine , but calling a male she seems to imply that either they are female sex ... untrue.. or that being a she is nothing to do with biology. Whereupon I run into the problems I mentioned before ... if she isn't about biology, what should I be?