Gender critical men

[MakeWorkYourNewFavourite]

I'm still trying to get my head around things, so please go easy on me. My eyes have been opened to trans ideology and I'm getting worried about my daughter's future. I've also noticed preferred pronouns slipping in at the end of email signatures... just little things, but I fear it's so insidious that it'll be too late before the wider public takes note.

I was just wondering if the key to this whole mess would be to get men onside? Adult, male humans. Do they want to be putting he/him on the end of emails? Do they want their daughters going into toilets/on school trips/into women's health centres with men? Do they want their sons being told they could have female brains? Do they want their daughters binding their breast? Just a few example, but you know what I mean.

I understand that this issue affects women massively. But we're not alone. It seems we're the only ones trying to fight it. Or... we're fighting it on different terms. Is that it? Do gender critical men tend to be the right wing, Christian types? Are there any men out there who feel the same concerns as us.... not necessarily on behalf of women... but for themselves? Or for their daughters and sons?

I don't know if I've made myself clear. But, I suppose my point is that this has become a feminist issue whereas perhaps it should be an everyone issue? If it's all wokekind against radical feminists, we're not going to get anywhere. I'm as woke as fuck except on this issue. There have got to be more wokies (and men) who just haven't thought about it. They're just trying to be kind.

I'll call anyone anything they like because I'm polite, but I won't be forced into having to tell people I'm a woman or how to refer to me when I'm not there.

Also, I read somewhere (maybe on here) that schools were referring to every student as "they" in the school newsletter. e.g. "Josie did a paper maché sculpture of the Eiffel Tower because they visited Paris last year." I don't really like that. I'm trying to bring up my DD to be a strong, female warrior... She's a she. She's an excellent she.

Delurking for this. I've been reading this forum for about a year, after learning about it from my wife. I guess like a lot of people who consider themselves liberal, I initially thought feminists were making a mountain out of a molehill, and just wondered why you couldn't all be kinder and more inclusive. But soon you see the infuriating injustice of it all.

As a man I think the realisation hits differently. We may believe women when they tell us the value of single sex spaces, but as we don't FEEL that need ourselves, I think it's too easy to feel that a compromise position is fair. We're not giving away something vitally important to US.

However, a lot of men in my circle pride themselves on being rational and skeptical, and I think appealing to that side of the issue, and highlighting what a complete assault on reality this all is, will persuade some of them more easily. When they see how telling a simple truth can get you ostracised, or how some of the anti-scientific ideas of gender ideology are being taken into schools, I think that will force more men to adopt the less trendy and less easy stance.

This is a little academic for me at this point as I'm not very vocal on SM, and not a particularly influential person in real life. But when I get the chance I'll be putting the GC case forward to my woke tech industry colleagues. So I may be the least useful person in the world to have on your side, but I'm on your side.

Thanks for the education.

This is a thread from 2018 so it's a bit out of date and a lot has happened since but it's a VERY useful read for anyone trying to grasp the basics of this argument. It helped to 'peak trans' me.

Pay special attention to the two long posts from Datun. Extremely well explained I feel. Especially the description of the Trans 'peak'.

Break it down for me? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me*
*

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

^^ I couldn't get the link on @PatsArrow to work so did a search to make sure it wasn't deleted. I think it's the two asterisks be at the end. Anyway, same link.

I got my ex to pay attention to this issue. He thought I'd suddenly turned "homophobic" but I got him to read a few things and he gets it now. He's not woke, he's not a Christian right winger (I don't think we have many of those in the UK), he's just a fairly average guy. I think it helps that we have a young dd. He's spread the word to his family and some of his old work colleagues. My brother completely gets it. He's pretty anti-woke in general so I knew he would.

I've started to talk to another man about it (apparently talking about harms caused by the gender brigade is how I flirt now). He's also a fairly average guy -no extreme political leanings I mean. At first I think he thought I was worrying over nothing, but I feel that he's starting to see where I'm coming from.

What I've realised from a lot of the men I've spoken to on this, is they see the attention seeking/narcissistic behaviour and will roll their eyes at that, but it's a bit trickier for them to see the full implications. Not necessarily because they're bad people, but because they haven't walked in a women's shoes. It must be hard to comprehend. A lot of this stuff is so insidious, and some of the pro-gender people do sound to the untrained ear as if they really know what they're on about.

I'm just a normal person, not influential in any big way. So are most of the people I know, but I figure the more we can spread the word and fight back against the misinformation that's so prevalent, the better.

Wonderful links, tips, resources. Thank you for being so kind and welcoming. I'm very grateful.

My dh is suspicious and always seems to think the worst of other men he doesn’t knows motives - sadly he’s usually right. So he is naturally very wary of self Id.

I’m not sure it counts as a man but my 13 year old DS peak-transed this week.
It’s been a bit of a turnaround as we had a massive row about JKR last year although he’s not mature enough to totally get what he was arguing. However this week we had a big discussion (not planning on it being GC) about teenage trends throughout history etc. We got onto it. He admitted he feels there’s too much ‘gender rubbish’ about and thought that non-binary couldn’t possibly be a thing. To cut a long story short - he’s now a young GC. Although we’ve discussed keeping this truth close to his chest as he’s doesn’t want to heap abuse into himself at school or amoungst peers. As he’s 13 I think it’s too much to ask! But it gave me hope for the future.

Have managed to get my partner to understand my POV, he never thought TWAW anyway and laughed at the suggestion that TMAM. What he doesn't understand though and TBH, I don't think that as a man he can, is how offended I am by the whole issue.
As a woman, I find it extremely insulting that a man can claim to be a woman along with all the trans rubbish that goes with that and insists that I accept it. I find it extremely insulting that a transwoman insists that they are the same as me and I don't think that a man get ever understand that (generalising somewhat).

Of course it's insulting to women - I was never in any doubt about that, but maybe I hadn't realised quite how insulting some of them were now prepared to be.

And as a man, I also find it quite insulting that a transwoman insists they are different from me. And thinks he should be given special privileges over me. I could see myself bringing up some sort of complaint if I saw a transwoman being offered something that I was not eligible for, or given some advantage for their alleged gender identity. I believe the law is clear that discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment is not permitted.

But I get the impression that a lot of men do think transwomen are different from them. Maybe some sort of fundamental reaction to GNC men, or some sort of homophobic basis?

Or, maybe it is a sort of "protesting too hard" - a man who maybe does have some AGP urges and wants to deny that? "Oh, no, I'm not like that AT ALL". I'm a CIS man. Definitely not interested in cross-dressing. No sir.

I find it extremely insulting that a transwoman insists that they are the same as me

The part I find even more offensive than that appropriation is that the 'same' bit only applies when and as convenient. When it comes to who gives the orders and who shuts up and does what they are told, we are very definitely not the same. When it comes to who has a public voice, gets listened to and has politicians running around in circles to please them, it's very definitely not the same. When it comes to who's issues are represented in the media, it's very definitely not the same. When it comes to speaking on women's issues that affect female people as 99% of women, is definitely isn't the same. When it comes to who gets to have choice, have their feelings respected, to name themselves and have others respect their words, who gets to have boundaries, who gets to have an identity of their choice and reject imposed ones?

Oh it's not the same.

At all.

OP asks,
Are there any men out there who feel the same concerns as us.... not necessarily on behalf of women... but for themselves? Or for their daughters and sons?

I am a man. I do not claim to speak for all, most or even many men, but I know there are some men who feel the same concerns. I do not engage at all with social media, Twitter, Facebook or the like (apart from I am surprised to notice Mumsnet), so my perspective is limited to a fairly small set of worldwide friends, family and acquaintances and what I see in traditional media.

Feminism? Of course I support women's challenges to patriarchal structures and mistreatment. Why? The obvious reasons: in general , the way women are mistreated is wrong, so there is a moral imperative to try and change; in particular , I have family and friends I love, some of whom are women and girls (!), so I care personally about these wrongs.

Like all my family and friends, and most of my acquaintances, I am politically left-wing. I used to be politically active on the left, to different extents at different times in my life. Now I am too old for anything but the personal. But I support younger friends, children and grandchildren, in their struggles. Some of them do more than others ... I am proud, particularly, of my daughters, who fight the good feminist fight in their professional and political lives at the same time as bringing up their daughters and sons to see the world aright and do good. (I sometimes congratulate myself and my partner for how we brought up these wonderful human beings -- I am losing the capacity to see 'smug' pejoratively as a qualifier of 'parent'.)

Transgender ideology? At first it seemed just a bit of a laugh -- grist for my mill of collecting absurdities and logical nonsense. Then (MN partially responsible here) I noticed its deleterious consequences and got worried, again both generally and personally.

It seems to me now near the end of my life, not to mince words, that women (my daughters and granddaughters in particular) are the hope of the world. Sons and grandsons I tell to take due note of this; their world will need the women whose skills, intelligence and sensibility would once have been wasted by misogyny produced out of male fear. Compared to this, transgender nonsense is a sideshow. But it is still nonsense, and it will continue to have bad consequences for women and girls if left unchallenged and unchecked.

So more power to your elbows, gender-critical feminists of Mumsnet!

We shouldn't center men. But for the sake of getting them to listen, we should talk more about how males, especially young boys, are harmed by patriarchal systems.
And children's rights really need to be focused on as much, or more, than adults's rights, anyway.

After all, so much of the abuse women endure from men is because those men grew up with abuse, and mimic what they were raised by.
Serial killers and rapists have deeper issues than just being sexist.

Problem is that it will always look like Charlotte Chlymer (sp.?) in the making. That dude is incredible, from pretending to be a feminist to showing his true colours back to being a libfem icon after coming out as a transwoman.

I have found that regularly people question your motives. How could a man possibly side with those evil terfs.

It is an everyone's issue for the simple fact that gender identity ideology demands submission. Even if you give not one iota about women, the fact that you have to pretend males are women should bother any sane human.

My DH is gender critical. Not because of any particular religious or political affiliation. But because he thinks it's completely bloody insane.

my DH gets it - it was the sport thing that did it, but there's a difference between him getting it and him openly trying to do something about it.

As Dh but he wouldn't speak out I think because I actually think he's worried about being labelled "phobic." In terms of being the director of a small company and keeping his 'public face.'

I've wondered if he would feel differently if we had girls.

Privately he'd say something to close friends

I think most men outside the young/woke/left bubble easily see the injustice of trans activism and its impact on women. They might not care much, but they're not mentally impeded by rigid ideology and fear of venturing outside groupthink. Conversely, one of the most disconcerting things is how viciously misogynistic many of the young/woke/left men are towards GC women, and yet they probably think of themselves as pro feminism.

For one, I am immensely grateful to those men who take the time and trouble to enter the debate on behalf of women. Some of them, like Graham Linehan, have paid a huge price.

I think it's a massive mistake for men to generally get involved in feminism and feminist issues. As a man, I read this site a fair bit, but hardly ever contribute. As it should be. We aren't generally welcome, nor needed. And that isn't a complaint. We should keep our noses out. I don't see why this particular issue should be any different.

It's different because it affects children. It's not women's role to be s9le carers for children

Oh come on. All of the issues you are concerned about affect children. Sexism, misogyny, inequality, violence...what doesn't affect them or touch their lives?

Compelled speech effects men too as does a new and different concept of human biology. That gender ideology is being taught as fact at every level of education and questioning it makes one a pariah will impact on boys and men. That gender ideology is written into law and that all of us are forced to choose a gender identity in order to access healthcare and any service provided by the state or private businesses will impact men.

If decent men are required to chaperone female friends and relatives for reasons of safety in all intimate areas perhaps even staying in hospital with them will impact men.

If women increasingly find it hard to participate in public life, including employment outside the home that will put more pressures on male earners in the family.

Affects not effects

FWIW, I think a lot of the so called 'trans ideology' is confused to say the least. I have my views on it, but everyone has to tread warily on here, so I'm being careful. I've been put in my place on other forums - nearly always by women - for expressing my reservations in certain areas. I also think it's a bit shitty that men only care about something due to the 'I've got a mum/wife/daughter' line of thinking. Either something is wrong, or it isn't.

Everyone deserves respect, and the right to live a life free of fear, threat and intimidation. Right now, I think there's a lot of wilful blindness as to how certain groups feel about certain other groups. There are a lot of genuine concerns that are being ignored. But as usual with any political movement, this who shout loudest tend to do the least listening. I really don't know how you fix that.

At this point, there's usually someone who will pipe up and tell me to check my privilege and/or go away. Have I outstayed my welcome?

I think it's a massive mistake for men to generally get involved in feminism and feminist issues.

I understand the general principle, but in this case this is not just some sort of internal warfare between women. (Yes, there is internal radfem-vs-libfem warfare, but it's not just that).

There are masses of men getting involved and attacking women here. Nobly standing aside while they do because it's "just a woman thing" is not the decent thing to do. We have to take responsibility as men for what other men are doing and call the bastards out.

If they were keeping their noses out, then we could afford to. But they're not.

Now, there are areas I just wouldn't get involved in as I don't feel it's my place, but I'm not going to stand aside while fuckheads like Rachel McKinnon and Aiden Comerford dance on the grave of Magdalen Berns.

I did not know there were so many men that were so misogynistic. And now they're utterly shameless about it. We have to shame them.