Gender critical men

[MakeWorkYourNewFavourite]

I'm still trying to get my head around things, so please go easy on me. My eyes have been opened to trans ideology and I'm getting worried about my daughter's future. I've also noticed preferred pronouns slipping in at the end of email signatures... just little things, but I fear it's so insidious that it'll be too late before the wider public takes note.

I was just wondering if the key to this whole mess would be to get men onside? Adult, male humans. Do they want to be putting he/him on the end of emails? Do they want their daughters going into toilets/on school trips/into women's health centres with men? Do they want their sons being told they could have female brains? Do they want their daughters binding their breast? Just a few example, but you know what I mean.

I understand that this issue affects women massively. But we're not alone. It seems we're the only ones trying to fight it. Or... we're fighting it on different terms. Is that it? Do gender critical men tend to be the right wing, Christian types? Are there any men out there who feel the same concerns as us.... not necessarily on behalf of women... but for themselves? Or for their daughters and sons?

I don't know if I've made myself clear. But, I suppose my point is that this has become a feminist issue whereas perhaps it should be an everyone issue? If it's all wokekind against radical feminists, we're not going to get anywhere. I'm as woke as fuck except on this issue. There have got to be more wokies (and men) who just haven't thought about it. They're just trying to be kind.

Obviously I can’t speak for all men, but I think something overlooked is that - imho - most men believe that any man who wants to be a woman is either openly or secretly gay and want to become a woman so that they can have sex with men.

And most men don’t believe that gay men are a threat to women (conversely they are sometimes viewed as a threat to straight men). This means that most men struggle with the idea that a man would want become a woman in order to gain access to women’s spaces for nefarious reasons.

I have found that pointing that the vast majority of trans women retain their male genitalia helps to focus their mind - not as leats though

Most blokes get the sports thing too but it still won’t fully sink in till a few mediocre men start winning Olympic medals - but if that gets far it will probably be too late to stop it

I am a member of a forum dedicated to a male dominated hobby and lurk on a few more. Any time this issue crops up on the "chat/other" sections of the forums there will generally be a few gleeful posts from a small number of the same usual suspects (who tend to be misogynist, xenophobic, etc elsewhere in their posts) chortling and gloating about how the hatchet faced man hating dykey feminazis and the drippy wokesters are tearing each others' eyes out, what fun, pass the popcorn. The majority of the forum members keep their thoughts to themselves. Often a few of the silent majority types will rebuke a usual suspect for a racist comment elsewhere, quite often for a homophobic or even sexist comment elsewhere, but I have not seen anyone demur when the "Feminazis vs wokesters...FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" comments are made because both of those groups are cheerfully stereotyped and universally despised. It's dismissed as faintly amusing (and unmanly) catfighting/handbagging.

That does not mean that most men are GC. It's a lot easier to think that sex-sterotypes are reflections of the natural order when you benefit from them.

True. Also, I don't think that many men - certainly not the usual suspect types I mentioned above- really think that TWAW but neither are they interested in the definition of a woman except in relation to the default/perfect human ie men. So many are happy to keep the "Man" box for "proper men" like themselves and deny that they are in the same group as the squealing handbagging TWs by tossing them into the convenient "Woman" box (which in their head is really the "Non-man/Other/Misc." box already populated by squealing handbagging NonMen with vaginas). Which pisses off the despised feminazis (result!!) and earns cookies from the despised wokesters (hilarious!! They don't even like cookies but fuck it, may as well make a show of eating them, preferably in front of the feminazis, lol!!)

I don't know if this would be seen as a retrograde question but wouldn't a lot of men just think of a mtf transexual, 'Ok, crack on, less competition'? consciously or not. Obviously if it is a matter of sports whether professional or amateur if someone takes themselves off to the women's competition, that's one less to beat. Likewise for awards and positions that have been reserved for women.Not their circus, not their monkey.

An example is the number of male writers and commentaters who fell over themselves to praise the work of Jan morris as a female journalist last year and her bravery in changing mid-life. If she had tried to make that career from the beginning as a biologically female journalist in the 1950s she would have been put back in her place on the women's pages and memorialised as an appendage to her husband who would have been allowed on Everest when she wasn't.

As for ftm, I don't know maybe because they would tend to be smaller in height and build than the average male they can just disregard. they are not going to feel threatened in a toilet or chaging room or a bar so why would they care? Could any of the men here say if they do notice if they think a stranger is ftm transgender and if they care?

Be careful what you write on social media about it. They're coming for peoples jobs! I have been threatened on Twitter, someone threatened to report me to my employer also. They can, I'm not bothered 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm now on a months ban from Facebook for stating biological facts.

Thank you, everyone! This has been an interesting post and I have links to some great resources now (not a big help when I have a massive work deadline, but hey-ho!)

I really feel the need to learn as much as I can about this.

I feel the TWAW debate is such a separate subject to what's happening with our children (e.g. onset of teenage gender dysmorphia in girls).

What is the overall aim of the trans movement? That's what I don't understand. Why are doctors, policymakers, teachers etc. so unwilling to ask questions? Did it start with genuine sufferers of dysmorphia (i.e. usually boys at a very young age) feeling the need to assert their rights (what rights didn't they have?)... and then everyone else jumped on the bandwagon? I don't actually understand what it's all about. That's my problem here. Why are TRAs doing this? What do they want to achieve? Why would they actively encourage others to do this? Why isn't it seen as being a health issue? I'm overweight. It's a struggle. I wouldn't encourage anyone into this position. I don't want to be a proud fattie-fattie-bum-bum (my DD's word for it). I don't want to be ostracised because of it, but I don't want to encourage it in others. I know it's probably not a fair comparison... But, I don't think comparing transgenderism to homosexuality is the right comparison either. ANd I think that's where the "Woke" are mistaken in all this.

Sorry, my thoughts are all over the place. I feel like I need to buy a nice new pad and pen and start writing notes!

@2020canfuckitself

That's so worrying. What did you say? I imagine someone had to report you? I wonder if this is a losing battle? Or lost already?

I'm always surprised how many effeminate gay men don't realise they would have been trans'ed had they been born today. Or do they realise but don't think that would have been a bad outcome?

Have I missed mention of Graham Linehan yet?

@bellinisurge

Have I missed mention of Graham Linehan yet?

Graham deserves special mention, yep.

Lots of GC men around. I’m known on Twitter for my “guard dogs” 🤣, couple of GC men I’m friends with. I’ve seen a male friend banned from Twitter for taking on a well known pain in the arse TW. My DH wears the Thought Criminal tee shirt and the Women Said No, Get Over It tee regularly. Amazing that they never are threatened or piled on like I’ve had. During the first lockdown I had fucking 4 TRAs jumping all over me on Twitter, aggressively trying to make me submit to TWAW and getting abusive with it...my mate appeared and tweeted them, “if I stick on a dress will you shag me, lovelies?” 🤣 amazing how fast they vanished and blocked us both. GC men are sadly needed as the TRAs (basically men’s rights activists most of them) won’t challenge another man.

MakeWorkYourNewFavourite
What is the overall aim of the trans movement?

Conspiracies rarely have one fully-joined up agenda. Instead many small loosely-related networks seek common interests and form short-lived, highly-focused relationship to reach a specific aim before dissolving without a trace.

This is why terrorism has been so effective - and so hard to combat. There is no "person at the top" to topple, nor one single aim to discredit. It's a not a "well-organised unit" but a "self-organising swarm".

• and this can't be fought using traditional command-and-control hierarchies - it can only be fought with self-organising swarms of individuals - a Team of Teams - which is what we are seeing with the informal support networks between groups like FPFW / Safe Schools Alliance / Fair Cop and so forth. The effectiveness of this approach is clear, and it is to the disadvantage of TRAs that they think we are 'one group, funded by the far right'.

[donquixotedelamancha]
I think there is scope for men to be helpful but anything specific should be organised or directed by the women leading things, even if men are doing the work.

That might be a laudable sentiment from an ideological perspective, but no-one has the authority to mandate it. There are no "leaders" in this, nor should there be; leaders are easy to discredit and no-platform, and then a movement dies until reborn in a different form by the next generation.

Yes, it's human nature to want to hold others up as leaders (and hide behind them) but whilst these 'prominent advocates' perform an invaluable service in uniting people in a common cause, ordinary men and women on the street have never heard of them.

And whilst everyone is grateful for those who are in a position to put their neck on the line, the real work is performed by thousands of independent individuals presenting compelling arguments for their friends and families to act upon.

Meh.

That might be a laudable sentiment from an ideological perspective, but no-one has the authority to mandate it.

Yes and no. I'm suggesting that GC men are right to be cautious to avoid speaking over women. If a specific action is thought to be worthwhile then there are certainly women who are prominent in the GC argument who could encourage or organise that.

Where men are using their specific expertise or position to speak out that's great but I think it's important that the main drivers of this are predominantly women.

Have I missed mention of Graham Linehan yet?

I think he is GC but it's not clear. He doesn't like to talk about it much.

My post was trying to lighten the mood a bit but I should add I’m involved with some of the organisations mentioned and regularly donate money to them, the men involved aren’t in the organisations (they don’t want to start pushing in) but do donate financially. Every extra pound and every man who says, “I won’t ask to join because it’s a female only group” is of benefit to these groups.

@WootMoggie

It's not the case that men don't care, or that it doesn't affect them (men have wives, mothers, daughters etc. and we do see the impact)

But getting started on this is a very bumpy and rough ride. I've been involved with this a long time now, and have lost count of the number of times I've been told by GC feminists that I have no right to an opinion on the subject, and that none of it affects me. Then there are people like Jean Hatchet who have been very vocal that these issues must be women-led fights and that men's ONLY role should be lifting up women or criticizing other men and must be otherwise invisible (regardless of what else you might be bringing to the table).

Other men see this and just say, "Oh God - why do you even bother getting involved mate? Leave them to it, I say..."

Another stereotype is that men just effortlessly swan through life's opportunities and thus don't care about such matters. But most men I know are actually acutely aware that their livelihood keeps the family financially viable and if that goes, their marriage will likely go down the pan too. Unemployed men are not considered desirable, especially if it was caused through them having strong personal principles as it makes them a liability and not a good choice for supporting a family.

As a man, you also have to take it as a given that when attempting to engage in the conversation, a significant portion of that group will pretend that you don't exist or be openly hostile.

As for starting up a new group (a common suggestion) called, "Men for Women's Rights" or whatever, you'll find that NO man - nor indeed most women - would trust any man starting such a thing. They'd be right not to as well, as it's a magnet for entirely the wrong kind of man.

For as long as wokesters can get a man fired, men actually have EVERYTHING to lose by getting directly involved in this, and as such, will often find that the better option is to quietly support a woman in their life who is doing so.

Great post and I found myself nodding to most of it

Man here (always wanted to announce that)

There’s definitely something about us being told to butt out in the past. On MN I’ve been told my opinion doesn’t count as I’m a man.

I’ve also been told you I’ve had it easy, my career has been effortless and men have an easy life. Clearly I acknowledge my privilege as a white man, but easy and effortless? Nope

Fwiw I’m broadly GC but sometimes see that crossing over into trans hatred (well... men in any form hatred). I think there’s a discussion to be had on self identity but a balance to be struck on helping and accepting trans people find their place. I’m not sure how to do that as a supportive man, so as the post above says, will probably quietly support the women in my life to do so.

Bill, why is it women's job to help men find their place?

@PopperUppleton

Bill, why is it women's job to help men find their place?

It’s not. Trans people on both sides probably need the help of society in general

That doesn’t mean blind acceptance that people can change sex, they can’t, but I think it does mean accepting people for who they are

I think it does mean accepting people for who they are

You cannot know who they are.
That's why society has safeguarding.

@WootMoggie

I think it does mean accepting people for who they are

You cannot know who they are.
That's why society has safeguarding.

Yes I don’t disagree. I said there was a discussion to be had, that I’m GC and I totally accept the safeguarding point.

I just feel uncomfortable if the debate doesn’t contain at least an acceptance that there are people out there who need help. So maybe I should have said accepting some people for who they are.

But who are they? WhAt should we accept them as?

Should I think of a transwoman as that or as a woman ? It makes a huge difference. In particular to how I understand who I am. If women isn't biology but is feelings or brain, then perhaps I am not a woman after all

But then what am I? Someone who has faced abuse and discrimination because of that biology who now has no means to call it out

I think it does mean accepting people for who they are

Can you unpack that a little? Because that's the root of it for women.

If you mean accepting that some people born male prefer to identify as transwomen, and need acceptance that they will need resources and facilities apart from men's resources and facilities, have needs for example medical that are wholly specific to transwomen and no other group which should be provided, and need protection in law from harassment or discrimination based on their presenting and naming themselves in ways not in keeping with gender stereotypes?

I've never yet spoken to a GC woman who wouldn't only agree with all the above, they'd probably help campaign for it.

Or do you mean accepting that a male born person is actually a woman, who should be treated in all situations by women as if they are in fact women too, without any distinctions made or permitted by biological fact, or that the female half of the species has specific needs of their own?

Because that's where all the issues are.

So do you believe female humans are a thing with rights of their own, or do you believe female humans must accommodate and prioritise all male humans at all times and hand over their own resources and put aside their own needs to do so, regardless of the male human's agenda, and to female human detriment?