I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

I'm betting the OP is just letting the thread fill up, and will make a last second plop to call us all bigots etc.

It is deeply naive (at best) to assume people won't go to any trouble to insert themselves into situations where they can exploit or abuse vulnerable people for their own ends. There are many many examples, often with a cloak of respectability - the Church, Scouts, sports coaching, the Policy, etc. People spend years and considerable effort to do precisely that.

Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
I actually don’t have a problem with genuine transwomen. I do have a problem with how easy it is to identify as a transwoman, because it means that offenders and fetishists can do it very easily. Previously the complexity of the process and the involvement of medical professionals generally ensured that transwomen were genuine. But it’s become too easy and unregulated, and self ID is what introduces the risk imo.

I'm betting the OP is just letting the thread fill up, and will make a last second plop to call us all bigots etc.

Second this prediction.

@LurkingLeaver

I'm betting the OP is just letting the thread fill up, and will make a last second plop to call us all bigots etc.

To be honest, I burst out laughing on the last 1000 post thread where positrans managed to time it beautifully to get in under the wire with the last post being a triumphant “transwomen are women!”. It was comedy genius and they must have been thrilled to pieces. It got a grudging hat tip from me from a timing perspective, I can appreciate that no matter where it comes from

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If Eddie Izzard, that transwoman in the Telegraph who previously wrote a book about men’s rights and Pips Bunce, a banker who identifies as female part time, win the top 3 women’s prizes or lead the WEP, is that a step forward for women or not?

Very good question. OP?

But Eresh, we are continually told it will never happen....that there isn’t that many transwomen taking women’s shortlists and women’s specific employment opportunities....

I would absolutely love to have a % of males who have identified as women and have or currently hold women’s officer roles, positions on gender balanced panels and boards and the proportion winning women’s shortlist places. I think it would be hugely out of proportion to the % in the population and maybe, just maybe, it would open some very stuck closed eyes.

At the moment, people are happily, and sometimes willfully, remaining ignorant.

Positrans must have had the post already typed and was just waiting for post 999. Pro tip. I typed a summary but was just too quick for me.

@LurkingLeaver

I'm betting the OP is just letting the thread fill up, and will make a last second plop to call us all bigots etc.

I hope not. I hope they try to be a tiny bit original at the end, rather than just continuing to be so dull.

To be honest, I burst out laughing on the last 1000 post thread where positrans managed to time it beautifully to get in under the wire with the last post being a triumphant “transwomen are women!”. It was comedy genius and they must have been thrilled to pieces. It got a grudging hat tip from me from a timing perspective, I can appreciate that no matter where it comes from

Oh i missed that!

I got the last word once and it was a good last word! I was most chuffed....told everyone (no one cared 😩)

To be honest, I burst out laughing on the last 1000 post thread where positrans managed to time it beautifully to get in under the wire with the last post being a triumphant “transwomen are women!”. It was comedy genius and they must have been thrilled to pieces.

I appreciated that too 🤣

OP’s anonymous and presumably mortified mumsnetter mum will have to switch the router back on first

Good pro tip, eresh, I’m going to use that one to type something completely random and intriguing at the end of this thread...

The best one was when Lang just posted WEETABIX

Potato.

Oh I remember that one as well eresh

That was awesome

To be honest, I burst out laughing on the last 1000 post thread where positrans managed to time it beautifully to get in under the wire with the last post being a triumphant “transwomen are women!”. It was comedy genius and they must have been thrilled to pieces. It got a grudging hat tip from me from a timing perspective, I can appreciate that no matter where it comes from

That was brilliant indeed!

I have to say, these threads come up fairly regularly but this one has to be one of the most ridiculous in terms of plopping content - surely the OP is embarrassed, its all here in black and white?!

Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

Pisses me off when people think this is some amazing gotcha. Do they think we've none of us ever met anyone with a dsd?

Knowing and loving an intersex woman gave me a degree of insight in what it means to be a woman, that is entirely consistent with my feminism. She was a woman regardless of her developmental difference - because she was born with a vagina and raised accordingly.

I have no idea of her chromosomal makeup, only that she is, and always has been, phenotypically unambiguously female. It is that which makes her a woman.

How anyone could think this supports the recategorisation of people born with penises and raised accordingly, I can't fathom.

@HecatesCats

To be honest, I burst out laughing on the last 1000 post thread where positrans managed to time it beautifully to get in under the wire with the last post being a triumphant “transwomen are women!”. It was comedy genius and they must have been thrilled to pieces.

I appreciated that too 🤣

Yes, I will award positrans a for getting that one in!

equally it is scientifically illiterate to say that hormone therapy doesn't massively affect someone's athletic ability. It should be case by case.

Without getting into who is or isn't scientifically illiterate, It doesn't really matter where you put a boundary, it will always exclude somebody. If you insist that sports classifications are not boringly neutral but define an inner sense of self, that exclusion will always be painful.

@bluebluezoo

The only thing that qualifies Semenya to compete in women’s athletics is a clerical error on a birth certificate

Really? So you are saying she is phenotypically male and being assigned female was simply a typo?

She was assigned female at birth as she has apparent female external genitalia. Was raised female, and although she was questioned several times always “proved” she was female until genetic testing was done.

I don’t know enough about DSD’s to know how this claimed “male puberty” etc has affected her physiologically. Her body obviously has some issue with processing testosterone, or she would have developed normal male genitalia in utero.

DSD’s are far too complicated to be able to say how much an individual is affected.

Semenya has no problems processing or responding to testosterone, Semenya lacks dihydrotesterone which is responsible for full formation of the external genitalia. It was argued in the hearing, and the judges (or whatever they’re called at CAS) agreed that this means Semenya has experienced virilisation at a level that brings male advantage. With what we know now, or more accurately, when Semenya was diagnosed in 2009, it became evident that the birth certificate was an error and nothing else qualified or qualifies Semenya to compete in women’s athletics.

Having an incorrect birth certificate and that falsely being the basis for someone’s social existence should not be enough to disregard biology.

No one can give a good answer to what qualifies Semenya for women’s athletics other than “socialisation”.

Hi Young Feminist! I'm a 40 something feminist and am reminded of my biological sex every time I open my bowels because I have a rectocele following a forceps delivery. I know this isn't the kind of thing young feminists like to think about much, but you are a feminist and childbirth and women's health are feminist issues.

I can't identify out of my prolapse - indeed, taking testosterone would almost certainly make it worse - and no male person has ever or will ever suffer from the same condition.

I think it's pretty important to be able to talk about female bodies and female health in clear language everybody understands, and for women to be able to organise around something that really matters to us and which experience shows doesn't matter terribly to the medical establishment!

I don't understand why Semenya gets discussed in the context of trans issues. Semenya is not trans. I simply don't see what someone with a rare medical condition has to do with men identifying as women, when there is absolutely no doubt about how male people like Jenner, McKinnon or Izzard are.

Senenya is male and as soon as this was discovered should have been excluded from competing against biological females in women's sports. But there's been a cover up. It's unfair.

@testing987654321

I don't understand why Semenya gets discussed in the context of trans issues. Semenya is not trans. I simply don't see what someone with a rare medical condition has to do with men identifying as women, when there is absolutely no doubt about how male people like Jenner, McKinnon or Izzard are.

There is absolutely no doubt how male Semenya is. There is nothing about Semenya that is biologically female. Semenya has been discussed because the OP brought it up, and Semenya is a prime example of what happens when mediocre males are allowed access to women’s sport. The pathway that Semenya trod to get there may be very different to trans athletes, but the outcome has been the same: women have lost out because the feelings of a male have been placed above fairness and biology.

I do still think that the OP brought up Semenya as a distraction. Semenya has a DSD.

People with DSDs have requested that they are not used in arguments about trans issues.

I just prefer to keep the issues separate.