I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Well, what a thread! Shame I missed it.

It's good to have it all laid out like this, alongside the total unwillingness to consider anyone else's opinion.

I do like that handy new function where you can quickly scroll through an OPs posts to see if and how they engaged with our responses to their OP. Most illuminating.

And for whoever OPs mum is.

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

I think some men are a threat and that single sex spaces are a last line of defence against those men in situations where women are vulnerable, e.g. asleep or in a state of undress. Nobody has explained where the line is between a man, a gender fluid man and a trans woman.

2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

They are women. I suspect you might not be aware that the vast majority of women with a DSD are very clearly female. If you are using a statistic of '1 in 100' or talking about red hair, you need to do some more research.

3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

Again, you are talking about DSD, not people who are trans, and you are confusing the two. Caster Semenya's condition has not been made public, but sex does not bestow value or virtue or worth. We have those simply because we are human. Similarly, your ability to compete in a particular event, whether that is welter weigh boxing or under 16 netball does not denote value or worth.

My sex just means that I need specific rights and protections e.g. access to contraception, protection against discrimination because its assumed that I will become pregnant. I could make a long boring list, but the point is that they are all a consequence of being female. Obscuring the consequences of sex and pretending that these things happen randomly, and not just to women, just enables the erosion of rights.

@JacobReesMogadishu

So we can see that self identified trans women appear to be much less likely to be convicted of rape than men

However the important thing is that self identified trans women are much more likely to be convicted of rape than women! And therefore should not be in a woman’s prison.

I’m actually not interested in how they compare to men.

And this point is always the end result after this repetitive discussion with jj. Repetitive because it crosses threads.

It matters not one jot the parsing on whether it is rape or sexual assault or other sex offences. And violence. The facts that need to be highlighted are: are they higher than in the female population? Yes they are. So therefore, the propensity to commit crimes such as these ones is higher than the female rate. Much higher.

And I keep coming back to it.... csa should never be ‘overlooked’ because it is not rape. And it is VERY relevant for safeguarding decisions such as changing rooms and toilets.

@JacobReesMogadishu

So we can see that self identified trans women appear to be much less likely to be convicted of rape than men

However the important thing is that self identified trans women are much more likely to be convicted of rape than women! And therefore should not be in a woman’s prison.

I’m actually not interested in how they compare to men.

I genuinely don't care if every transwoman is kind to kittens, is less violent than my late Nan.

They're men and for that reason I don't want to share female spaces with them. Be that toilets, prisons, changing rooms, female sports.

I do hope OP's mum has seen this thread.

Caster Semenya's condition has not been made public

Not explicitly, but the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling explains clearly that Semenya has 5 alpha reductase deficiency which is a condition that only affects males. Semenya has 46XY chromosomes in every cell, testes, has been through male puberty, has male lung capacity, male cardiac output, male muscle mass and myonucleii, male skeleton, male pelvis, no uterus, has never had to deal with a period ever, not in training or competition, never had to deal with fluctuations in oestrogen and progesterone giving increased risk of injury. The only thing that qualifies Semenya to compete in women’s athletics is a clerical error on a birth certificate.

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_-redacted-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf

Low opinion you have of your mother, thinking she can't think for herself and waded into a forum and was radicalised by the big meanies.

What's 'exhausting and absurb' is claiming male people can truly understand what it's like to be women, can bother lesbians on dating apps even if they make no effort to change their appearance whatsoever, can expect to be put in women's jail's even if they raped women and girls with their intact penis, can get a position as the female representative in the NY government or women's officer in the Labour Party even though they are very recent transitioners, don't care about problems affecting women and are abusive and giving rape threats to women on Twitter, can compete against women in sports despite obvious advantages, can get changed in front of scared nine year old girls, can force everyone to affirm that they're women just like that, etc. etc. etc. (I can provide multiple sources/examples of all of these claims)

Zero problems with the trans people who actually have gender dysphoria and want to quietly live their lives while presenting as the opposite sex as best as they can. Many problems with those who go way too far and insist on making us deny reality and creating safeguarding problems and upsetting situations for women and girls. No, trans women are not women in the exact same way women are. You know this too. No, 'excluding' them is not the same as excluding black women or arbitrarily excluding any group of women.

Women with intersex conditions are still women. Intersex conditions have nothing to do with being transgender.

What's YOUR all-encompassing definition of a woman? What do I have in common with a trans woman that I don't also have in common with a 'cis' man? Don't say it's my gender identity, because I honestly don't have one. I am a woman because I was born female and that's all. I don't fit the stereotypes of being a woman. I don't identify with feminity. This is my lived, inescapable reality.

*femininity

And yes. We need to have threads like this each month at the moment. Because each time more recent resources are posted for everyone to see. It is always informative.

And incredibly so when the resources are posted by activists and they are always the same debunked ones. Nothing new.

Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling explains clearly that Semenya has 5 alpha reductase deficiency which is a condition that only affects males.

Yes, this.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Also: I'm baffled by how every poster who trundles on here and announces themselves as of the side of Light and Kindness and Inclusion and Rights and All Good Things and here to lighten our sad little darkness...

Then turns out to be extremely rude, anything but kind or thoughtful or even basically politically aware, weaponises (well, lesbians and DSDs so far), ageist, absolutely against intersectionality and generally.... well, not exactly modelling the values they came to enlighten the heathens with.

YY

What do I have in common with a trans woman that I don't also have in common with a 'cis' man? Don't say it's my gender identity, because I honestly don't have one.

This speech was posted on twitter yesterday by Alan Rusbridger, ex editor of the Guardian. I think it tells you everything you need to know about gender and why we are critical of it. This speech was made at a time when it was still usual to choose a PM from the House of Lords, and I imagine within the lifetimes of some people posting on this board. As AR pointed out, this man was active in the House of Lords until the late 1990s.

13th Earl Ferrers - speech to the House of Lords 1957:

Frankly, I find women in politics highly distasteful. In general, they are organizing, they are pushing and they are commanding. Some of them do not even know where loyalty to their country lies. I disagree with those who say that women in your Lordships' House would cheer up our Benches. If one looks at a cross-section of women already in Parliament I do not feel that one could say that they are an exciting example of the attractiveness of the opposite sex. I believe that there are certain duties and certain responsibilities which nature and custom have decreed men are more fitted to take on ; and some responsibilities which nature and custom have decreed women should take on. It is generally accepted that the man should bear the major responsibility in life. It is generally accepted, for better or worse, that a man's judgment is generally more logical and less tempestuous than that of a woman. Why then should we encourage women to eat their way, like acid into metal, into positions of trust and responsibility which previously men have held?

Yet the OP wants to shove every woman into a gender box. How did we get here?

"It is generally accepted, for better or worse, that a man's judgment is generally more logical and less tempestuous than that of a woman."

I think this sentence sums up the TRA thought process.

Of course, they'd probably try and argue with me otherwise and tell me why I'm wrong, thus proving my point.

I would love to understand @borandukht ‘s view on what a woman is.

I used to be all “whatever makes you happy”, “be kind”, and “but it’s their identity”. Until someone asked me what a woman was. It’s impossible to answer this question in a trans-inclusive way without being sexist or using circular reasoning (or an absence of reasoning).

There are indeed lots of people who are anti-trans or who push for gender conformity, some claim to be feminists. But feminism fundamentally is against stereotypes and sex roles aka gender.

I have argued and will argue against discrimination against trans people, for example in the work place. Trans people should have access to safe, secure work in a respectful environment. I’ve stopped others’ anti-trans snickering about “shims”, and I think people should dress as they like, etc. Gender dysphoria is real and I absolutely think we need more and better mental health services so people can live their best lives (which does not mean ‘behave within societal norms’). The vast majority here would agree.

But most of us have spent our lives fighting sexism and cannot support (privileged) males like Eddie Izzard ‘coming out’ in a nail salon. It’s so sexist. It’s so reductive. Pink, sexiness, breasts, lipstick, giggling, femininity etc etc etc do not make a woman. Anyone who thinks so is throwing women under a bus. And not just socially - we shouldn’t have to conform to these stereotypes of ‘woman’ - but the issue is far larger. How can we have legal protections for our sex - like maternity, sex discrimination, sports, scholarships- if we legislate for gender, which is effectively a set of stereotypes? How can we stop discrimination against masculine women, for example, if we start protecting ‘femininity’ rather than females? If Eddie Izzard, that transwoman in the Telegraph who previously wrote a book about men’s rights and Pips Bunce, a banker who identifies as female part time, win the top 3 women’s prizes or lead the WEP, is that a step forward for women or not?

The only thing that qualifies Semenya to compete in women’s athletics is a clerical error on a birth certificate

Really? So you are saying she is phenotypically male and being assigned female was simply a typo?

She was assigned female at birth as she has apparent female external genitalia. Was raised female, and although she was questioned several times always “proved” she was female until genetic testing was done.

I don’t know enough about DSD’s to know how this claimed “male puberty” etc has affected her physiologically. Her body obviously has some issue with processing testosterone, or she would have developed normal male genitalia in utero.

DSD’s are far too complicated to be able to say how much an individual is affected.

I don't give a monkeys what anyone identifies as. I support trans men because they're biologically female, I believe women are oppressed because of their biology. How else do men know who to rape, keep out of schools, mutilate genitals ect. Women sports should be for natal women, women's prisons should be for natal women.

Oh, and PS - I should add that I attended trans pride in about 2009 in Brighton with my lesbian sister when it was little more than a few events including a picnic on the beach. Do I still support trans rights? Yes- see above. Do I believe TWAW? And TMAM? Nope, and I think an awful lot of trans supporters don’t really believe it when it comes down to it either.

I hope OP is suitably chastened but I fear not. Her arrogance and her childish attitude to her mother were bad enough but her failure to engage in the debate she said she wanted is just dismal. She's demonstrated she's no feminist.

However I don't doubt that the mass of information supplied by the GC posters here has been entirely convincing to lurkers, so we have that to thank the OP for.

This went well for you OP didn't it ?

It should be noted that part of the reason for this is because self-ID is still a legal process, like changing your name via DeedPoll. Any hypothetical rapist or assaulter most likely would not bother with the effort regarding a toilet or changing room by virtue of the fact that they'd be committing a very public sex crime and be done for it anyway.

How naive you are. Do you know that anyone, anyone can change their name. They simply have to download the wording from the government's own website Change your Name and sign the declaration with a witness. Some then go on to 'enrol' their change of name through the court - but very very few. In almost twenty years of dealing with the public and their identity documents for work I have encountered ONE enrolled deed poll.

So, what effort?? Also, I have come across many who claim to have changed their name and produce the relevant statement but then their passport is in their former name - so clearly no penalties for making false statements.

You should listen to your mum - you have a lot to learn.

I don’t know enough about DSD’s to know how this claimed “male puberty” etc has affected her physiologically. Her body obviously has some issue with processing testosterone, or she would have developed normal male genitalia in utero.

Plenty of posts with links about this on this very post blue if you want to actually learn. Particularly about the effects of male puberty which semenya did experience considering even their current natural testosterone levels.

On one hand, it is traumatic that someone was missexed at birth. However, C S knows now how their body has been effected by testosterone and the benefit they derive from this. They now knowingly race with this knowledge and it seems from videos and articles may not even have been living as a female for a very long time ... except in sport. So, there are many aspects of this case that make it very unclear. Hopefully, it will mean that appropriate guidance will be finalized to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

And where the three medalists in an Olympics with similar DSDs but all having male puberty will win a female race.

@3rdNamechange

This went well for you OP didn't it ?

She's probably off taking another long journey. She's probably researching for her novel: Woke in this time of Covid: how I nearly blew my brains out because I asked for reasoned argument and got it.

If Eddie Izzard, that transwoman in the Telegraph who previously wrote a book about men’s rights and Pips Bunce, a banker who identifies as female part time, win the top 3 women’s prizes or lead the WEP, is that a step forward for women or not?

Very good question. OP?

@PlantMam

All JJ’s smoke and mirror speculation re: trans prisoners is totally unnecessary btw - Bent Bars recently released a bunch of info sheets:

www.bentbarsproject.org/news/bent-bars-launch-trans-prisoner-info-sheets

The bit I found really interesting is transmen prisoners overwhelmingly wish to be housed in the female estate. Yet activists repeatedly campaign for trans people to be housed with their preferred gender.

Trans activism is shit for female people, even the ones who identify as male.

It's wholly a men's rights movement. An anti-woman movement. In every way, from the use of PBs, to the attempted invasion of women's single-sex spaces, and everything in between.

To OP's mum