I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

It's like comparing apples and oranges. And thinking that an apple in an orange peel is an orange

Best comment by far!

They weren't convicted of rape in the last 2 years

Yes you’re right, the conviction was 2 years and 2 months ago . What about the other arctic or though jj? Someone convicted just 12 months ago of raping a 3 year old?

And how m ah Kevin's convicted of rape?

And how many " we are not actually sure of the sex " ?

*article

When you look at all the other reports of crime all around the world, why are you determined to pretend that males who self-identify don’t commit dangerous crime? we all know the reasons why

Well we've now had not " real" transwomen , "predatory" lesbians and now we have women are" as violent as men". Anything left before I can call HOUSE?

@334bu

Well we've now had not " real" transwomen , "predatory" lesbians and now we have women are" as violent as men". Anything left before I can call HOUSE?

An overt sexual threat? That's how this argument usually ends

[quote NotBadConsidering]And not one self identified trans women appears to have been convicted of rape in the UK in the last 2 years.

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-serial-child-rapist-is-serving-a-life-sentence-for-rape-of-3-year-old-aaron-hughes-a-k-a-aza-mckillan/[/quote]
Ther were convicted in 2017, I said the last two years.

@NotBadConsidering

*article

When you look at all the other reports of crime all around the world, why are you determined to pretend that males who self-identify don’t commit dangerous crime? we all know the reasons why

I haven't once suggested that. I have said, based on the conviction data we have for the UK that self identified trans women do not appear to commit serious sexual offences at anything like the same rate as men.

@334bu

Well we've now had not " real" transwomen , "predatory" lesbians and now we have women are" as violent as men". Anything left before I can call HOUSE?

It's all so predictable and untrue.

In October 2018, Mr Brooks was sentenced to 11 years of incarceration. As part of a sexual harm prevention order, Mr Brooks must notify police of any social media or email accounts he creates in the future, and provide officers with the passwords to the accounts.

Did you know someone was convicted of raping a 3 year old just last year in Wales jj?

JJ

"Ther were convicted in 2017, I said the last two years."

Stop making demands on women to prove the risk and threat of male bodies in our safe spaces within your tiny parameters. Respect our boundaries.

Over the last few years we’ve gone from male crimes being reported as male crimes to male crimes being reported as female crimes

Now this is common i do not believe police reporting or media reporting of some crimes

You can show me all the evidence you like that woman A committed a sex crime but it means nothing anymore

I have said, based on the conviction data we have for the UK that self identified trans women do not appear to commit serious sexual offences at anything like the same rate as men.

Well if none of them self identify as transwomen then that makes sense. Presumably they'll be identifying as women which makes it impossible to keep track of these things. A cynic, such as me, would say that seems to be part of the plan.

@wellthatsunusual

I have said, based on the conviction data we have for the UK that self identified trans women do not appear to commit serious sexual offences at anything like the same rate as men.

Well if none of them self identify as transwomen then that makes sense. Presumably they'll be identifying as women which makes it impossible to keep track of these things. A cynic, such as me, would say that seems to be part of the plan.

Oooh

Crosspost

You said it better

OP, you say you're a feminist. Feminism is about addressing sexism and sex-based oppression, in a system that is hierachical and places 'men' above 'women'. It is sex-based rather than gender-based, although gender stereotypes are used to do this. Sex is not 'assigned at birth', it is identified during pregnancy. Women are discriminated against because of their biology - not just to do with their capacity to reproduce, but also not having the aspects that are particular to female bodies adequately addressed in medicine, for example.

Feminism is by definition gender-critical because it seeks to dismantle gender stereotypes. It is not feminist to tell a young boy that he is really a girl because he likes shopping and cooking (this is an actual example from 'Beyond Magenta', a book about and for transgender teenagers).

There is no 'transphobia' here, but there is a great deal of frustration with trans rights activism - a movement which many trans people have a problem with and are sometimes actively vilified by. The level of misogynist abuse that is cloaked in this activism is unsettling and disturbing.

I think it would be worth your while to genuinely consider where your mum is coming from, and what rights women did not have when she was your age. Do you think it's fair to say she is transphobic - actively saying or doing hateful things towards transgender individuals - or is she perhaps, like many here, alarmed by the implications of the activism? That distinction matters.

I have said, based on the conviction data we have for the UK that self identified trans women do not appear to commit serious sexual offences at anything like the same rate as men.

Do you have any evidence they are safer? You also said a range of crimes, not just sexual offences.

Do none of these people count:

mobile.twitter.com/historywoman/status/1191453438825181186

serious sexual offences

Do you include child sex abuse (including possession of content depicting csa) as serious? Or not so serious?

@AnyOldPrion

So to summarize, the source of your data does not claim to record all crime committed by men who claim they are women, but only those reported in the press and seen by those running the website.

Sorry I missed this. I find it very unlikely given that the right wing press have spent the last five years obsessing over trans people that a trial involving a serious sexual offence committed by a trans woman would go unnoticed, not least because there are sveral thousand gender critical people desperately trawling the world's media and court records trying to find trans criminals. For fucks sake, transcrime even managed to find someone convicted of stealing a sandwich and decided she needed to be named forever on a website to prove the terrible threat of the trans.

For reference:

2020 transcrimeuk.com/2020-convictions/

2019 transcrimeuk.com/2019-convictions/

But jj thinks it’s hard to find examples of crime. It just depends on what jj thinks of as “serious” crime .

Has anyone other than JJ determined that the cutoff for trans crime stats is exactly two years? I wonder why that timescale was chosen ?

I’d like to set it at ten years: does this affect your argument at all, JJ?

And not one self identified trans women appears to have been convicted of rape in the UK in the last 2 years.

Where are you getting your data from jj? I can't find anything on the ons site which records the trans status of rapists.

@Winesalot

serious sexual offences

Do you include child sex abuse (including possession of content depicting csa) as serious? Or not so serious?

Yes I think it is a serious offence however when making comparisons it is best to compare like with like. So we can see that self identified trans women appear to be much less likely to be convicted of rape than men - this shows that trans women do not retain male pattern criminality. It is different somehow. To find out how different then it would be useful to make other comparisons where data allows on an offence by offence basis. It looks like trans women are also less likely to be convicted of sexual assault, and of murder, or at least murdering women. It seems likely trans women are less likely to be convicted of serious violence such as GBH or ABH. To my knowledge there have been no convictions of trans women in the UK for terrorism, or involvement in high level organised crime. I suspect convictions for knife and gun crimes are also pretty low compared to men. I don't recall any trans women being convicted after the 2011 riots, or any other riots, or for football hooliganism or other typically male crimes. So it seems that patterns of criminality are very different to mens, but to work out exactly how much and in what way would require significant research.

jj you still haven't explained how there can be 46 transwomen in prison for sexual offences if only one is convicted every 5 years.

**Do you include child sex abuse (including possession of content depicting csa) as serious? Or not so serious?

Yes I think it is a serious offence however when making comparisons it is best to compare like with like. So we can see that self identified trans women appear to be much less likely to be convicted of rape than men - this shows that trans women do not retain male pattern criminality. It is different somehow. To find out how different then it would be useful to make other comparisons where data allows on an offence by offence basis. It looks like trans women are also less likely to be convicted of sexual assault, and of murder, or at least murdering women. It seems likely trans women are less likely to be convicted of serious violence such as GBH or ABH. To my knowledge there have been no convictions of trans women in the UK for terrorism, or involvement in high level organised crime. I suspect convictions for knife and gun crimes are also pretty low compared to men. I don't recall any trans women being convicted after the 2011 riots, or any other riots, or for football hooliganism or other typically male crimes. So it seems that patterns of criminality are very different to mens, but to work out exactly how much and in what way would require significant research.**

So you will have all the graphs and figures to back up your assertions comparing men's convictions in all the different categories of offence with transwomen's convictions ?

I look forward to seeing them!

@DialSquare

This is painful to watch. It's like me going on a cricket thread and telling the posters there that they have all the rules wrong.

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