I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

And not one self identified trans women appears to have been convicted of rape in the UK in the last 2 years.

You do realise conviction rates for rape are very low for men generally?

Another could be that most of the trans prisoners transitioned in prison or after committing the offence. This would suggest that trans women do not retain male patterns of criminality post transition but they may prior to that. Another could even be that some of the trans prisoners are trying it on, or more likely that a long prison sentence might push someone who might have identified as gender fluid or nonbinary if they weren;t imprisoned towards identifying as a trans woman because the prison system isn't really geared up for nonbinary gender identitities. A visibly gender nonconforming man may well be at risk in the mainstream prison estate. A trans women on the other hand may be given her own cell, may be segregated for her own safety and be allowed to use things like showers at seperate times.
@jj1968

Where do you extrapolate that prisoners who decide to transition after being sent to jail don't retain male patterns of offending? That’s a bit of a stretch.
You’re absolutely correct about prisoners who are trying it on - its common knowledge in the male prison estate that if you are a man and have a long sentence in a high security prison, declaring yourself to be trans can be a route into a female prison, none of which are high security and obviously give ‘trans’ prisoners access to females who are incarcerated and therefore not able to avoid their potential advances!

thecritic.co.uk/keep-men-out-of-womens-prisons/

I think jj believes that if they say the same thing over and over again without any supporting proof it will become true. Mirroring a certain orange skinned president perhaps?

I was talking about the UK only obviously

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-child-sex-offender-too-vulnerable-and-easily-exploited-for-prison-judge-says/

This took me 30 seconds of scrolling the women are human crime page.

And not one self identified trans women appears to have been convicted of rape in the UK in the last 2 years.

Where did you get your figures? If from the Transcrime website, you might as well pluck a figure from the air.

In 2016 five “women” were convicted of rape. What are the odds, do you think, that they all had penises?

@334bu

" When we look at annual convictions then trans women do not appear to commit sexual or violent offences at anywhere near the same rate as men"

Statistics to prove this statement??????????????????????????

Only one self identified trans woman has been convicted of rape in the UK in last five years. Around 12,000 men have been convicted of rape in that period. You can keep on denying this simple fact as long as you want, it doesn't make it any less true.

think jj believes that if they say the same thing over and over again without any supporting proof it will become true. Mirroring a certain orange skinned president perhaps?

Yes, I made a similar observation earlier

Many TRAs are masters of the fake news technique. Repeat a lie enough and at least some people will believe it.

@NotBadConsidering

jj1968 also said this on another thread:

The fact that not one verified trans women was reportedly convicted of rape, murder, sexual assault, serious violent assault, terrorism or involvement in organised crime in 2020.

Which means two things. Firstly jj has ignored every single report here:

www.womenarehuman.com/category/crime/

Second, jj thinks there’s some way we can verify trans women, presumably to see who is genuine and who isn’t.

So jj can you explain those crimes committed in 2020 and can you tell us how you verify trans women?

I think it a bit of an oversight that jj did not mention 'csa'. There were at least a few mentions in the media of arrests (maybe not prosecuted yet) of transwomen with collections. Kinda important to mention in relation to ability to safeguard children in single sex spaces....

And this is versus how many women arrested or convicted for that particular group of crimes?

Sorry but your mother is entitled to her own opinions.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

JJ You lost me here: "trans women and non trans women"

Women are women. Women are not non trans women. Women are not a subsection of trans women.

Your narcissism is unparalleled.

I think my eyes rolled the whole way around.

That says it all. I wonder if ‘non trans woman’ will come up as an option on an equality and diversity questionnaire the next time i fill in a job application form or apply for a new passport 🤣🤣🤣 Transwoman (She/Her) Non transwoman (she/her) Non binary (They/them) Transman (He/Him) Non transman (he/him)

@LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett

You're really uncomfortable with your mum not agreeing with your views, aren't you? Why do you think this is? Do you feel that all women have to agree all the time? Or is it just that older women should agree with you?

This . So feminist lol

jj didn’t mention weapons charges:

www.womenarehuman.com/police-transgender-equalities-officer-charged-with-explosives-and-weapons-offenses/

But murder was mentioned:

www.womenarehuman.com/transvestite-convicted-of-murdering-his-mom-by-sword-decapitating-her-attacking-his-dad/

But CSA conveniently left off list:

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-pedo-blames-gender-dysphoria-for-his-urges-to-view-images-of-children-being-raped-anthony-scales/

Where is Bunbury? Also where is @borandukht who supposedly wanted an open rational debate? Has she lost her grip on that tether now? Where does one go when the tether is lost?

I can never take these discussions seriously. Who on earth honestly thinks men are women or vice versa?

It's like comparing apples and oranges. And thinking that an apple in an orange peel is an orange.

Ludicrous.

So shoot me... or delete me

And not one self identified trans women appears to have been convicted of rape in the UK in the last 2 years.

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-serial-child-rapist-is-serving-a-life-sentence-for-rape-of-3-year-old-aaron-hughes-a-k-a-aza-mckillan/

@ScrapThatThen

How can one gather proof of an increase in crimes by women being due to self ID when erm, the crimes of self identifying trans women are recorded as women's crimes?

Exactly!

I wonder how many Kevin's were convicted of rape in the last year?

And not one self identified trans women appears to have been convicted of rape in the UK in the last 2 years.

www.womenarehuman.com/41-yr-old-transgender-convicted-child-rapist-posed-as-a-teen-boy-to-groom-a-12-yr-old-girl-jacinta-dean-smart-brooks/

I think jj might also have forgotten Karen White.

@AnyOldPrion

And not one self identified trans women appears to have been convicted of rape in the UK in the last 2 years.

Where did you get your figures? If from the Transcrime website, you might as well pluck a figure from the air.

In 2016 five “women” were convicted of rape. What are the odds, do you think, that they all had penises?

Pretty low. It's far from common but women are occassionally convicted of rape under joint enterprise laws. This article from the BBC shows that between 1997 and 2000 14 women were convicted of rape in London alone: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1225124.stm

But jj do we actually know they were women as I would see them?

I wonder if ‘non trans woman’ will come up as an option on an equality and diversity questionnaire the next time i fill in a job application form or apply for a new passport

I'd be annoyed if it did - I identify myself as a woman (on the grounds of being born with a fanny) and I meet the Stonewall definition of trans, so I can't tick 'non trans woman', but if I tick 'trans woman' then people like jj will scream appropriation.

It would leave me in a bit of a pickle.

Nothing's beneath you is it jj, in the pursuit of eroding women's hard won rights.

This would suggest that trans women do not retain male patterns of criminality post transition but they may prior to that

Have you seriously just suggested that the act of saying 'I'm a woman now', which is all that needs to happen to satisfy the definition of self ID, might change someone's offending behaviour? One day a violent sexual predator but the next the magic words are uttered and lo, a changed person.

It's a very interesting parallel with religion. Born again, only as a woman instead of a Christian.

[quote NotBadConsidering]And not one self identified trans women appears to have been convicted of rape in the UK in the last 2 years.

www.womenarehuman.com/41-yr-old-transgender-convicted-child-rapist-posed-as-a-teen-boy-to-groom-a-12-yr-old-girl-jacinta-dean-smart-brooks/[/quote]
They weren't convicted of rape in the last 2 years.