Ben Hunte BBC article about puberty blocker ban

[risefromyourgrave]

Not biased at all maybe they’re trying to appease the people upset by big meanie Amol Rajan....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55369784

@StellaAndCrow

Thinking back to the "like a sneeze" giving up of adult sexual feelings - I know that many people will feel uncomfortable having a sexual relationship with someone who doesn't have adult sexual feelings i.e. can't feel sexual pleasure and orgasm. I can imagine this becoming a problem over time in any long term relationship. I think that as well as the physical side effects, anyone undergoing the treatment should understand the effect on adult relationships and narrowing of their "dating pool".

This is a really good point actually.

A lot of people wouldn't be comfortable having a sexual relationship with someone who cannot feel sexual pleasure or orgasm etc. Not because they are 'bigots' or 'closed minded', but because they are decent people who wouldn't feel comfortable putting their partner through something that their partner isn't getting anything out of. This will massively have an effect on future relationships, again, forever.

How do you even begin to explain any of that to a 12 year old?

@notassigned

"No they couldn't."

Me neither.

Can a trans girl understand the consequences of going through a testosterone puberty? The physical masculinisation of her body that will likely give her life long gender dysphoria, the constant issue of navigating a transphobic society with a broken voice and a large build? The extensive surgery she will likely need if she is to overcome some of those effects?
Positrans asked this about a boy who wants to be a girl going through natural puberty, which obviously doesn't need consent.
BUT THIS IS WHAT IS BEING DONE TO GIRLS! This is what we are worried about! All this plus the sterilising and lack of sexual development caused by blockers. Girls start on puberty blockers, vast majority go on to cross sex hormones, for girls this is testosterone, with the effects as above - but for a girl.

The person who was born a boy can go back to presenting as a boy if they want - no problem. For girls, they have a girls body, with all these changes, and that's what detransitioners have been telling us about.

How do you think Jazz would have felt to develop a beard, a broken voice and a masculine body shape?

We'll never know.

Positrans

@notassigned

"No they couldn't."

Me neither.

But, @Positrans, this is irrelevant. The goal of mental health support/intervention is to reduce people's distress, not to "change gender identity" (however you define this). A person cannot change sex. If this (alongside all sorts of other factors, inevitably, perhaps including that adults have let them believe that they can) causing them distress, then they need help and support. If a person is deeply distressed, and says it's because they are too short/too ugly/too hairy/don't look like they used to before puberty/whatever, we don't assume that the only way to reduce distress is to attempt (and inevitably fail) to change the offending physical attribute.

How do you think Jazz would have felt to develop a beard, a broken voice and a masculine body shape?
I feel this needs to add - and be free of medical complications (because you can't magically turn into a woman with no side effects).

I just can't get past the fact. If a child is experiencing suicide ideation then the suicide ideation should be treated therapeutically. Feeding a child lies about their physical potential will only make it worse.

Regarding vaginal atrophy, I know a few women who have had radical hysterectomy due to cancer, its not the same as a regular hysterectomy all of the reproductive system is removed even parts of the vulva may be removed, which of course brings on immediate menopause and all the fun that goes with that. Its not something to be taken lightly and certainly not by a pre pubescent child.

The irresponsibility is breathtaking

Why does this article say the Tavistock is appealing the decision? The High Court refused to hear their appeal (rather vigorously).

My understanding is that the Court of Appeal may agree to hear it, if a point of law was wrong in the first judgment. But surely that decision hasn't been made yet.

I feel this needs to add - and be free of medical complications (because you can't magically turn into a woman with no side effects).. (re Jazz and how they would feel with beard etc)
Yes, to be experiencing their adolescence and early 20's NOT going through pretty horrific surgeries, and not being in front of the camera for them, would be a completely different life. They've been on this route for so long, who knows how they'd have grown up? Maybe they would still have been "trans" and decided to have surgery/medical treatment as an adult. Maybe they'd have been happy as a gay man. Or a heterosexual man. Who knows?

You'll find it's the same for almost every trans adult who didn't have access to blockers.

Male people. You are talking about the regrets of make people who wish to be women/identify as women/think they are women.

Keira Bell was a teenage girl. Not a wistful middle aged male.

You just cannot make make people female, any more than you can make them immortal. It sucks, but it’s the truth.

For make, read male, several times. Sigh.

The Boxing Day fox slayer has tweeted that the Tavistock is appealing the decision.

I watch lots of animal rescue programmes, and see many terrified trapped foxes rescued - after they are released they are calm and relieved. I've also seen my cat hiss or growl when she is scared. I just can't get over someone coming across a fox in that situation and beating it to death. And not only that. I mean, if I'd somehow done that in a moment of fear or madness, I'd be so horrified and ashamed. But no, he announced it on Twitter, as a kind of funny story?
I can't see him now without thinking of that.

He finished his degree in neuroscience at Nottingham Uni.

Not quite. University of Nottingham has a Malaysian campus.

From his Linked in:
"Since studying a Neuroscience degree on an all-expenses scholarship in Malaysia, I have been fortunate enough to work in some amazing roles. From being Google's youngest Strategy Manager, to jumping into journalism and becoming the BBC’s first LGBT Correspondent."

That said, the "all-expenses scholarship" sounds impressive. And then a full scholarship for Masters Degree in Journalism at City. . And followed up with Google and an internal award for "fantastic public speaking".

uk.linkedin.com/in/benhunte

So why is his journalism so poorly researched, and well...lazy.

I would have hoped someone with a neuroscience degree would have had some understanding of the potential impact of hormones on adolescent brains.

"And if their gender identity is insistent, persistent and consistent by the onset of puberty, we can be almost completely sure that it is fixed. At that point, we move, in some cases, to puberty blockers"

People would definitely have said as a child that I was rejecting my gender identity as I didn't play with dolls and wanted to wear trousers etc. This was still very consistent and fixed by the time of puberty, I wasn't happy about growing breasts and having periods. These feelings were insistent. I did not feel like a girl.

This was persistent and is consistent now. I don't wear a bra, I have a shaved head, prefer wearing men's aftershave to perfume and strongly believe I should be paid 20% more than I am. I don't conform to lots and lots of female stereotypes.

I don't feel however that my "gender identity is wrong". I do however feel like and know that I don't conform to sexist stereotypes based on my biological sex. This is fine with me. This hasn't changed since I was a child and won't change.

What did change is that I grew the fuck up and realised my biological sex would stay the same but I still didn't ever have to conform to the stereotyping. I am now very fond of my female body despite not liking periods and finding my breasts annoying when wearing clothes. But now I am older - I love being a woman for the fact that I can orgasm, give birth and breastfeed. It is worth it all but I never would have understood that as a child. Puberty ironically helped me develop so I understood it.

If an adult had taken all this away from me based on my earlier feelings (and this is the basis of the court judgement, children aren't capable of informed consent for this, argue it all you fucking want but it makes you look extremely sinister) I would now feel betrayed and let down and actually a victim of abuse.

No proper sexual functions or fertility based on the fact adults decided I persistently, consistently and insistently said I wasn't a girl at the age of 13 or whatever.

The fact that people don't understand that is so concerning (and I'll say it again, sinister).

@NotBadConsidering

There are only two functions for a “vagina” created from prepubertal tissue and bowel. One is for a reckless man to put his dick into if he can overcome the fact it isn’t actually a vagina and likely chronically infected, knowing the receiving partner will feel absolutely nothing in the way of pleasure.

The other function is to keep the surgeons busy with a lifetime of rectifying complications arising from it.

and there was a poor person in Norway (?) that committed suicide because they realised after their vaginoplasty surgery that there was a strong and persistent smell of faeces that they would be stuck with for life.

The surgeon obviously didn't ensure that their patient fully understood how the surgery was going to turn out.

Complain. As a correspondent he should be better than this. Quoting Harrop and Webberley as though they are responsible experts won’t get past their complaints process.

Someone at the BBC should write a story on ‘journalists’ writing one sided biased pieces using so-called experts and sources...

is it a woman thing to have more empathy for the children who are facing lifelong medication and surgery for a self-diagnosed condition?

I felt terrible when I found out that the little girl that I had known for years was planning to have a double mastectomy and is now seeing the changing effects of testosterone on their body. This is going to stay with this person forever.

I was only just learning how to look after myself at their age - away from home for the first time, trying to navigate life and not do too many stupid things (there were quite a few) but I survived (just - there was a close call) into proper adulthood.

Does it make men feel horrid when they think of the health effects ahead? Maybe I am a little sensitive - I get an 'ouch' feeling when one of my children hurts themselves - apparently it is something to do with the cells from the baby passing back through the placenta into the mother - I've forgotten the term for now.

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/update-gids-judicial-review-and-timetable-clinical-reviews-22-december-2020/

"has today sought permission to appeal "

I have no idea which thread (s?) to post this on and we probably don’t need another separate one so I’m going for this one as both Hunte’s piece and this one for Family Law Week were published on the same day:

www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed216529

The author is pro trans has collaborated on seminars with GIDS, according to her biography (www.coramchambers.co.uk/bianca-jackson/ ) but nonetheless, she does have a proper understanding of how this judgement fits into the work of the family courts, unlike Hunte or Jollyon. Interesting to see a more realistic take from the ‘Other side’.

"If you are under 16 years old and are currently receiving puberty blockers
If you are aged below 16 years and are currently receiving puberty blockers, your access to medication will not be automatically withdrawn.The UCLH/ LTH team and the Gender Identity Development Service at the Tavistock and Portman will conduct a clinical review of your case, working with you and your parents/carers to make sure you fully understand the treatment and any side effects.These clinical reviews will occur in early 2021and we will be in touch to arrange this in due course."

From a link in xanthangum's link above.

Surely, the Tavi should have been certain that those they started down the medical pathway ALREADY fully understand the treatment and side effects of the drugs? This should have been done BEFORE starting treatment, surely? Or is it an arse covering exercise for the under 16s already in the system seeing as the court deemed them unlikely to be able to give informed consent?

I have been thinking for hours about Positran's question.

What would be worse: having a deep voice and a beard or not being able to enjoy sex, orgasm and the closeness that goes with it.

Frankly, I'd rather put up with the former than lose the latter.

In fairness I do have quite an impressive beard these days (apologies for moment of levity!)