Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ben Hunte BBC article about puberty blocker ban

336 replies

risefromyourgrave · 22/12/2020 09:58

Not biased at all Hmm maybe they’re trying to appease the people upset by big meanie Amol Rajan....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55369784

OP posts:
StellaAndCrow · 22/12/2020 12:13

It would be really good on threads like this to hear from people who have been through the path of puberty blockers +/- cross sex hormones, and are now adults. I would find that more useful in getting the "trans" perspective for this situation - there's a limit to how much help the view of an adult who has had a sex life and fathered children can be.

NotBadConsidering · 22/12/2020 12:13

The negatives are never discussed. Never mentioned in articles like Ben Hunte’s. Not in the Sydney Morning Herald. Not in Pink News. Not on Twitter. Not by certain posters here. There is never a single acknowledgment of the harm PBs and CSH cause. Even if someone was to argue the pros and cons I would have a bit more respect, but there isn’t even acknowledgment of the cons.

It’s sickening really. Complete disregard for the long term future health of these children when they’re adults.

Whatwouldscullydo · 22/12/2020 12:14

surely someone's capacity to make any serious decision would be questionable at that point?

Doesn't testosterone exacerbate any depression?

StellaAndCrow · 22/12/2020 12:15

There should be quite a lot of people in their 20s who've been through this shouldn't there, timing-wise? I feel like I'm missing their stories. I've read a lot from detransitioners, but not from those who've continued in their transition.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 22/12/2020 12:15

Cross post with Reality there! ( Good username there for someone ...)

StellaAndCrow · 22/12/2020 12:16

Interestingly, low testosterone can cause low mood (in adults). I don't know if it's the same if you intentionally reduce/block testosterone in someone going through puberty. Or whether this has been factored in, or considered.

Passmeabottlemrjones · 22/12/2020 12:20

All this once again shows how the trans lobby played an absolute blinder latching on to LGB - if all of this was separate to rainbow flags etc there is absolutely no way it would have ever got the traction it has so far. In what other arena is making children lifelong clinical patients, starting with unlicensed drugs, before they have even reached puberty, something to be 'celebrated'? Its nuts!

How anyone can use the 'being trans is just like being gay you know' line with all that is laid out before us, is just beyond me.

notassigned · 22/12/2020 12:21

You can't change someone's gender identity with mental health support. Would it work on you - do you think a psychiatrist could completely convince you that you have a male gender identity?

No they couldn't. Equally they couldn't convince me I have a gender identity at all, any more than they could convince me to believe in a god. It's all the same thing - a religious belief.

At least the god version of religion doesn't require children to sacrifice their fertility and become a lifelong medical patient.

I can see you are personally invested in this positrans. But women on this board don't personally have anything to gain from stopping the barbaric practice of medical transition (unless their own child is caught up in it).

(Waiting for a deletion for the word barbaric. Cutting off breasts IS barbaric).

Passmeabottlemrjones · 22/12/2020 12:28

In October 2020, Emily's NHS psychotherapist wrote: "I am satisfied that Emily, with the ongoing support and guidance of her parents, has a good understanding about the potential side-effects of this treatment."

This is not 'treatment'. This is the start of a whole life being a clinical patient. Of hospital appointments and medication forever. Of a likely lifetime of sexual dysfunction, of possibly never experiencing sexual satisfaction. Of multiple painful surgeries. Of possibly never having your brain mature as it should. Of bone and growth issues. Of needing to take medication for the rest of your life to keep your physical body doing things that it won't do otherwise.

Imagine you are 12 years old. Imagine you want something more than anything in the world. Imagine all the adults around you are telling you you can have it. You are going to neither care about or understand how this could affect you when you are 40 years old.

RealityNotEssentialism · 22/12/2020 12:28

You can't change someone's gender identity with mental health support. Would it work on you - do you think a psychiatrist could completely convince you that you have a male gender identity?

It would depend on whether I had a male body. If I was born with a male body, I would be male as a result. At the moment, if someone tried to convince me that I was male, the existence of a vagina and breasts would cause me to question what they were saying. I get that it must be awful to feel as if you are in the wrong body and that you should have been something else but there are only limited things that can be done to change it. You can try for an imitation of the opposite sex but in many cases you will remain depressed because you will know that it’s not real. That’s what happened to Keira Bell. She realised that no matter how much medical intervention she had, she still wasn’t really a man.

Passmeabottlemrjones · 22/12/2020 12:30

And if being trans is not a mental health issue and no one is born in the wrong body, then what is this 'treatment' that Emily is having? What is being 'treated'?

Needmoresleep · 22/12/2020 12:32

According to his profile, Ben Hunte used to be a medical student, though in Malaysia and he does not seem to have completed the course.

Ben Hunte is the clear example of why I chose not to renew my TV license. I will not pay to have dangerous dogmas pushed to our children.

moptophairshop · 22/12/2020 12:32

What an absolutely fucking irresponsible article. Irrespective of your personal opinions regarding the high court judgement, where are the basics for discussing suicide such as a trigger warning and links for suicide support services? Suicide is such a complex issue that single cause attribution is reckless and ignorant. I agree with a previous poster that it'll no doubt receive complaints and be toned down, hopefully with the appropriate support signposting but that's not the point. It shouldn't have been published in this state in the first place.

Anyone applauding or sharing an article like this is showing their ignorance of the responsibility adults have in discussing and reporting suicide responsibility. I haven't been near Twitter (avoiding it for the sake of my own mental health) but I can imagine the idiots on there eager to share such an irresponsible piece, showing again a disregard for safeguarding over their own personal ideologies.

NotBadConsidering · 22/12/2020 12:33

@Passmeabottlemrjones

And if being trans is not a mental health issue and no one is born in the wrong body, then what is this 'treatment' that Emily is having? What is being 'treated'?
And why do we need to accept TWAW because they identify as such and no adult TW is required to change their body to meet expectations, but children have to immediately?
StellaAndCrow · 22/12/2020 12:33

Positrans for those whose dysphoria is severe and all involved feel that blockers as a child/adolescent are the best path, then they can still go to the courts and present the evidence, and the courts can allow the treatment to go ahead provided that it is in the child's best interests.

Needmoresleep · 22/12/2020 12:34

To add, this is about trust. How can anyone trust the BBC when they show such bias and irresponsibility on such an important issue.

OldCrone · 22/12/2020 12:36

@Positrans

Can a trans girl understand the consequences of going through a testosterone puberty? The physical masculinisation of her body that will likely give her life long gender dysphoria, the constant issue of navigating a transphobic society with a broken voice and a large build? The extensive surgery she will likely need if she is to overcome some of those effects?
Give me one good reason for giving these drugs to a teenage girl going through female puberty.
AlwaysTawnyOwl · 22/12/2020 12:37

QC on twitter saying that no Application for Permission to Appeal has been lodged so far. She points out that all Applications are recorded on casetracker.justice.gov.uk, a publicly available database so it doesn't say much for Bens fact checking skills that he clearly didn't bother to check this out.

StellaAndCrow · 22/12/2020 12:38

There does seem to have been a few successful attempts recently of trans youth ending their lives but in each case those kids had additional serious mental health problems and were all recieving social and medical affirmation. So surely that is proof that the medical pathway is not the answer?
I think that encouraging social transition is a problem. I can quite imagine children have been told that they can be the other sex, and as.a child it's pretty easy to present as the other sex - then they realise that actually they can't be - that's where a difficulty comes about, and of course it leads to distress. But it isn't "dysphoria" causing the distress.

Datun · 22/12/2020 12:43

I find it hugely concerning when adults are trying to live a life of “passing” vicariously through a random cohort of children, and be damned with the consequences for them.

Indeed. And they don't seem to be aware that everyone sees it.

NotBadConsidering · 22/12/2020 12:43

@StellaAndCrow

Positrans for those whose dysphoria is severe and all involved feel that blockers as a child/adolescent are the best path, then they can still go to the courts and present the evidence, and the courts can allow the treatment to go ahead provided that it is in the child's best interests.
A reminder again of the eight criteria the judges set down:

(i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;
(ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking puberty blocking drugs proceed to taking cross-sex hormones and are, therefore, a pathway to much greater medical interventions;
(iii) the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery;
(iv) the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to a loss of fertility;
(v) the impact of cross-sex hormones on sexual function;
(vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships;
(vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking puberty blocking drugs; and
(viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain

Personally, I cannot imagine my own very bright children being able to understand these issues if I was to sit down with them and go through one by one to gain adequate consent. So then I think about how other children, who might be dysphoric of thinking, or ASD, or intellectually impaired, or suffering from trauma from abuse might then process these questions and adequately consent.

But it seems advocates and their therapists in that article are convinced that they can. And I say good for them. In that case, present it to a judge and there won’t be a problem.

The only possible complaint an advocate might have with having to present this extremely competent child and their consent to a judge is that the process might take too long. Which would only serve to exemplify that advocate as someone who thinks bypassing adequate consent is morally acceptable.

Clymene · 22/12/2020 12:45

He finished his degree in neuroscience at Nottingham Uni. He's quite the self-promoter - his LinkedIn profile makes him sound like an intrepid investigative journalist when this article shows very clearly he is nothing of the sort. It's poorly written, sensationalist and factually incorrect in many places.

I really do despair of the BBC.

StellaAndCrow · 22/12/2020 12:46

Thinking back to the "like a sneeze" giving up of adult sexual feelings - I know that many people will feel uncomfortable having a sexual relationship with someone who doesn't have adult sexual feelings i.e. can't feel sexual pleasure and orgasm. I can imagine this becoming a problem over time in any long term relationship. I think that as well as the physical side effects, anyone undergoing the treatment should understand the effect on adult relationships and narrowing of their "dating pool".

RealityNotEssentialism · 22/12/2020 12:48

I think that encouraging social transition is a problem. I can quite imagine children have been told that they can be the other sex, and as.a child it's pretty easy to present as the other sex - then they realise that actually they can't be - that's where a difficulty comes about, and of course it leads to distress. But it isn't "dysphoria" causing the distress.

I agree. If you’re 6 years old then you can wear a dress and grow your hair long and nobody will question whether you’re really a girl. But by allowing a child to do that and to change name and pronouns at school, you’re giving them enormous false hope. It might be possible to fool people for a few years but their bodies will ‘out’ them before long. If you’d helped the young child to come to terms with their body earlier and never given them the hope that sex change would be possible then it wouldn’t be such a shock. Also, for a kid who’s socially transitioned, it’s not just puberty that is scaring them. It’s the possible ridicule, loss of friends, change of name and complete upheaval of identity that is now accompanied with it. No wonder they feel distressed. But that’s largely the fault of the adults who affirmed them as soon as they said they felt like they were in the wrong body.

InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 22/12/2020 12:48

They don't care - and that makes me feel terribly bad for people suffering with gender dysphoria.

The High Court ruled that informed consent isn't being obtained. They don't care.

The Tavistock pre-print paper suggests puberty blockers do nothing to help mental health outcomes. They don't care.

Webberly is a criminal, suspended by the GMC. They don't care.

Bränström and Pachankis cared so little, their paper considered suicide a positive mental health outcome.

They don't care.