Ben Hunte BBC article about puberty blocker ban

[risefromyourgrave]

Not biased at all maybe they’re trying to appease the people upset by big meanie Amol Rajan....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55369784

My sister - dressed ‘like a boy’, had boys glasses, boys haircut, boys toys, boys hobbies... mum and dad just let her get on with it and found it quaint.

She wore a dress last summer (when it was bloody hot and she’s seen one I had similar and really liked it) and posted it on Facebook - no one had never seen her in a skirt/dress (last time was at my wedding almost 30 years ago) it was very funny!

Personally, for me, the first practical solution would be to stop teaching it in schools. Restrict Internet advocacy and promotion. And get to grips with what pornography is doing to young girls and boys.
Teach children that gender stereotypes generally from a hierarchy with women and girls at the bottom, and why they are avidly promoted. How they manifested and exactly how to recognise them.

Yes. Agree with most of what you write.

If someone thinks they identify with or as the opposite sex, the first question should be how. Once you get an answer to that, the rest should follow.

Ultimately it’s a difficult and almost philosophical/ metaphysical question. I think psychiatrists are well aware of that. In the original Julia Grant documentary you see even then the psychiatrist points out... can anyone know what it’s like to be the opposite sex? But still we have the issue of managing extremely distressed patients in a clinical setting. That won’t go away.

Someone's sex has got nothing to do with identity, and everything to do with their body. If I woke up tomorrow in the body of a man, I would be a man. My sex is a description of my reproductive potential. It's got nothing to do with my thoughts or feelings.

I don’t think human identity is as simple as that though. Part of identity development in humans involves an identification process and there is a gendered, as in sexed, element to that. Brain tissue is sensitive to oestrogen and testosterone and behaves and develops differently under each (as do other organs). It’s not surprising that that would influence thinking, behaviour and identity.

I acknowledge this is really difficult but don’t see the practical solutions here very often. I do agree though we need to go back to viewing this as a medical condition (with compassion) and not a lifestyle choice to promote.

Perhaps the very first step and most practical solution is look at the Swedish approach. Limiting the ‘celebration’ of unrealistic outcomes. Balanced reporting (unlike this crap reporting at the moment on the BBC, articles by people like Lavery) would be a start.

Not having children see tv series where children or parents miraculously change sex and live happily ever after as that sex. Have TV series where kids are non conforming and celebrate non conforming. Not conforming to societies expectation of either sex. Allow people to be who they are without either changing sex or erasing sex (NB).

Allow detransitioners to talk and actually try to understand them and where the process failed. Because it did fail and the female detransitioners are the ones left with the more significant damage than the males. Of course, there is damage to all detransitioners. But hearing more of their stories openly, without them being demonized will help hugely.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

Here is a snippet. In the fall of 2019, there was a 65% decline in the number of referrals to gender clinics in Sweden. This corresponded with experts calling on the government to review clinical protocols and more balanced media coverage of the phenomenon of regret among gender transitioners, including the airing of a documentary entitled “Trans Train”

And yes. Surely the move away from it being considered medical condition with significant emphasis on mental health has harmed so many. It removed the focus of mental health exploration.

Make no mistake. A couple of sessions over zoom with a GGP doctor ain’t the epitome of mental health excellence.

Brain tissue is sensitive to oestrogen and testosterone and behaves and develops differently under each (as do other organs). It’s not surprising that that would influence thinking, behaviour and identity.

Identical twins disprove this.

I don’t think human identity is as simple as that though. Part of identity development in humans involves an identification process and there is a gendered, as in sexed, element to that. Brain tissue is sensitive to oestrogen and testosterone and behaves and develops differently under each (as do other organs). It’s not surprising that that would influence thinking, behaviour and identity.

There is the effect of hormones on brain tissue certainly. But, if a person had not taken csh and has no hormone imbalance, why would a perfectly health person of any age experience the effects typical of the other sex’s hormone mix in their brain?

Typesofcatalogue

You write that you agree that treatments need to be significantly revised. And we all agree that this revision is desperately needed and that further evidence needs to be reviewed and gathered to ensure that all future treatment is evidence based and as far as it can be tailored.

I have not really seen though, and you might have already mentioned this, why do you think this situation has come about where we are stuck with inadequate evidence and, in my opinion, many studies that border on wishful thinking theory?

Of course, I have my own thoughts and most of the regular posters on here do. And they are most likely very similar. But I am interested in your perspective.

Or do you think that trans people have been well served by the studies done so far.?

My son wanted to wear a dress pretty much all the time between the ages of 4-10. We let him.
FWIW my son is now sporting a shaved head and a tracksuit and he knows, as he always has done, that he is a boy, whatever he wears or plays with, whatever he calls himself or however he behaves. He knows he is loved as he is.

Of course that’s great and all fine. But there will be some boys who grow up like that who have absolutely no concept of their future as a man and internally envisage their future as a female. It may be somewhat abstract in the early days and it may be an absolute minority of children but it does happen. Yes early social transition must make it very difficult to back out of.

But there will be some boys who grow up like that who have absolutely no concept of their future as a man and internally envisage their future as a female.

What age of children are you referring to here? Do they think their bodies will spontaneously change into one of the opposite sex? Or are they thinking more about conforming to female stereotypes rather than male ones?

I agree that there are some kids who will never desist and for whom a medical transition is probably the the best treatment and the best way they can be at peace with themselves. However, we can’t tell which ones fall into this group and we know it’s likely to be just a small minority of those who have GD. Therefore we have to choose where the balance falls. Either we can medically intervene in lots of cases based on the say-so of the child. That way we will end up with kids who had medical procedures performed on them when they couldn’t understand or consent to them. They are likely to require medical intervention for life, be infertile and often lose sexual function. The alternative is that we are restrictive. That means that there will be some who will not be able to have medical intervention until adulthood and will go through the puberty of their natal sex. They may have regrets that they weren’t allowed to alter their bodies earlier when they are adults. However, to my mind, it is clear that the latter scenario is always better than the former.

Or do you think that trans people have been well served by the studies done so far.?

No. (Sorry if this post is too long)

If you read the old literature and papers from the 50s 60s and 70s you’ll see that most of the original psychiatrists and doctors who started treating transsexuals including with referrals for hormones and (experimental) surgery did so because they had no other solutions but at the same time were quite negative about that course of action. It was seen as a last resort and stipulated that if we (society) are going to allow this sort of treatment it must be used sparingly and evaluated and followed up rigorously long term. Every single patient. Along with research into causality.

Most of those ambitions have failed. Patients who do go through treatment both adults and children drop out in large numbers and so do those who don’t pursue treatment as they would rather forget it’s something they ever even considered. Now it’s even harder to contact old patients due to lack of consent.

In terms of researching causality it’s difficult to evidence ‘identity’. As many posters here know (and I agree) it’s become difficult to research it. Just like it’s seen as not politically correct to research ‘why are people gay’ or ‘is one race more intelligent than another’, now to research: ‘why are people transgender and are there alternative treatments’ has become transphobic.

I think some clinicians are on board with that because the narrative is if someone is truly trans/ transsexual we have nothing else to offer other than transition so we should stop questioning and support people to make the best of it and part of that is helping them stop seeing themselves as defective or disordered.

That’s how I understand it anyway. I don’t think the drive to sell more drugs/ pharma conspiracy theory is a major factor. I also think some of it is now driven by a large reservoir of (what we used to call transvestites) people who have a new found freedom to experiment with hormones and surgeries and want more access to female spaces than they previously have had. Much of the drive to shut down debate has come from those quarters. (This forum has played a part in helping me understand that).

It’s not surprising that that would influence thinking, behaviour and identity.

So what? Artificial hormones influences your behaviour, so what? It doesn't change your sex. There are plenty of women who are masculine and men who are feminine. It doesn't change their sex.

But there will be some boys who grow up like that who have absolutely no concept of their future as a man and internally envisage their future as a female.

No male can 'have a future as a female'. A female isn't a male without a penis. Or a male who's had facial surgery. Or a male who takes hormones.

Bloody hell. Women are nothing, are they? Males cannot live as females.

Take a minute and make a list of the ways a male 'can live as a female'. And then read back what you've written.

Take a minute and make a list of the ways a male 'can live as a female'. And then read back what you've written.

I would love to see such a list.

I got the impression that the early gender doctors were largely enjoying ‘playing god’ - they carefully selected patients to transition based on naturally feminine looks and being homosexual - persistent cross sex identity didn’t matter to them if the potential patient was over 6ft tall and attracted to women.

OldCrone I think for younger children it is more about stereotypes. But as they move towards puberty it becomes more about the whole person. Everyone thinks they’re an exception don’t they when they’re younger. ‘It won’t happen to me’. There will be some dysphoric boys who think.. but I really am a girl and it won’t happen to me. My voice won’t break, and I won’t grow facial hair because I’m not going to be a man. Then when those things do start happening it can be devastating. Same for some girls.

Sorry I feel like I need to apologise for long rambling posts. I’m on a train going across the country at the moment and it’s a strange time.

Datun for the transsexual it’s more about being perceived as that sex. ‘Living as a woman’ means being perceived to be a woman’. Some are more pragmatic about it than others and integrate their pasts into their present. Some don’t .

Going into the men’s toilet in public is not living as a woman for example. (Emergencies/ child care excepted).

if the potential patient was over 6ft tall and attracted to women.

Yes quite. The early ones would filter those out and label them ‘pseudo-transsexuals’ if they requested surgery. They used the ‘phallic woman’ psychoanalytic concept. That does seem to have been reinvented now as the ‘lady-d*ck’.

I think for younger children it is more about stereotypes. But as they move towards puberty it becomes more about the whole person. Everyone thinks they’re an exception don’t they when they’re younger. ‘It won’t happen to me’. There will be some dysphoric boys who think.. but I really am a girl and it won’t happen to me. My voice won’t break, and I won’t grow facial hair because I’m not going to be a man. Then when those things do start happening it can be devastating. Same for some girls.

But this is magical thinking, and by puberty he should have realised that wishing something to happen doesn't actually make it happen. The adults around these children are failing them by not making it clear to the child that they can't change sex.

And what do you mean by 'more about the whole person'? What is it that is not stereotypes?

I think Datun's suggestion is a good one:
Take a minute and make a list of the ways a male 'can live as a female'. And then read back what you've written.

And post on here anything that isn't about stereotypes or about invading women's privacy (like using women's toilets).

there will be some boys who grow up like that who have absolutely no concept of their future as a man and internally envisage their future as a female

but no boy is female or ever could be. affirming a belief in something they can never have is simply cruel. WE are the grownups. People need to stop indulging themselves by lying to children and just be honest

and as for this

Going into the men’s toilet in public is not living as a woman for example

dear god

Going into the men’s toilet in public is not living as a woman for example

That's why male TRA need to find another solution to their problems. To 'live as a women' means that everything 'woman' has to be inclusive of a sub section of males - women's toilets, women's sports, women's health, women's rights...

The male TRA solution to their problems to is remove sex based rights.

Is there a way to submit a FOI request on how many complaints the BBC has received about transgenderism bias?

what I can't understand is that the BBC has a written commitment to providing balance (I believe so, anyway) in it's founding charter.
I'm assuming that the response to complaints will be the usual bland nonsense. How can this happen? Has anyone carried complaints forward to Ofcom?

Apparently actor/activist David Paisley has a contact at the BBC who told him that the level of complaints about this article was higher than the positive letters so is now encouraging more letters praising it to be sent.

Sums up their mentality really. They think it's a game.

People are complaining about the article because it's dangerously irresponsible to impressionable children/teenagers.

TRAS: Oh no, the terfs sent more letters than us, lets send more to beat them.

This is not a dick measuring contest, this is about the welfare of children. Absolute idiots.

Oh no, the terfs sent more letters than us, lets send more to beat them.

It's appalling. Yay to sensationalising suicide! Yay to experimental treatment on kids! Yay to the BBC using discredited sources! (As long as our side wins). Do they ever stop to actually THINK?

This is not a dick measuring contest, this is about the welfare of children. Absolute idiots.

I completely agree.