Ben Hunte BBC article about puberty blocker ban

[risefromyourgrave]

Not biased at all maybe they’re trying to appease the people upset by big meanie Amol Rajan....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55369784

Is the Tavistock's appeal going to be "yes, we know these treatments don't have a good result, and there's life long side effects, but we want to continue giving them to children anyway"?

@NotBadConsidering

10 years ago, children in gender clinics were not given puberty blockers at anywhere near the rate they are now, and we are being led to believe that children now have distress that can’t be managed as it was 10 years ago?

It’s ridiculous. It’s basically the clinicians admitting they have lost all the skills needed to treat these children as they once were and they’ve become too reliant on avoiding the tough periods by papering over the cracks with puberty blockers.

The failure to prescribe back then led SG to source PB and CSH from abroad but that did not appear to alleviate her childs distress. She says herself how she was on suicide watch for years and there were numerous suicide attempts.

@StellaAndCrow

Is the Tavistock's appeal going to be "yes, we know these treatments don't have a good result, and there's life long side effects, but we want to continue giving them to children anyway"?

With a smattering of “that study the judges asked for repeatedly that we said wasn’t ready, we released it the day after the judgment and it said mental health isn’t improved. But we still want to give them anyway.”

And like many have said, particularly for girls, if they do go on to decide to transition, they'll be in a better position to do so if they HAVEN'T taken puberty blockers. They'll be taller, and genital surgery will be less complex.

And for boys, we know how much more difficult genital surgery is for those who've taken puberty blockers, as in the sad case of Jazz Jennings.

Many children are ill at ease with puberty, Positrans. I was. I would probably have been trans if I’d been born later. I never felt ‘like a women’ and I dressed ‘like a boy’.

The fact I’m now happy as a woman, isn’t because I ‘wasn’t really trans’, it’s because growth into one’s adult form (man or woman) is a process. Puberty and the changes of puberty is a huge part of that process.

Isn’t the statistic that the vast majority of children with gender dysphoria desist? I’d say discomfort - sometimes quite extreme - is normal.

@NotBadConsidering "A male child going through male puberty is as normal and expected as any other part of human development. We know from evidence that if such a child is left alone he will end up comfortable with his own body."

I went through a testosterone puberty. It made my gender dysphoria considerable worse. You'll find it's the same for almost every trans adult who didn't have access to blockers. If puberty makes you comfortable with your body, why do people like me even exist?

Just anecdotally my Dd's friendship group (15 yr olds) is a mixture of 50/50 girls and boys.

There's one Trans boy in the group who been 'trans' since 13. Wears a binder but no medication. They all call him 'he' because he just passes really well. It honestly feels right calling him 'he'. He's not very vocal about being trans, it's never a big part of the general conversation, he just honestly gets on with things. Out of the whole group he seems one of the happiest. However I'm aware I only see a small part of things.

The rest of the girls are 'straight' hetro-normative currently.
There's one boy who says he was gay, then bi, now not so sure.
One boy announced he was a-sexual but that's just fizzled into nothing.

One time my dd announced to me that she was boring because she'd realised she was only 'straight'. What a weird state of affairs!

My DS's friendship group is currently all boys (13 yrs) and not one of them has expressed any interest in gender fluidity (yet).

No point to this post really. I guess I'm just thinking aloud.

@Positrans

Can a trans girl understand the consequences of going through a testosterone puberty? The physical masculinisation of her body that will likely give her life long gender dysphoria, the constant issue of navigating a transphobic society with a broken voice and a large build? The extensive surgery she will likely need if she is to overcome some of those effects?

That’s an idiotic comparison because puberty is a completely natural part of human development, not a medical intervention. There’s nothing to have to ‘understand’ on the part of the child. The fact that this argument is made just demonstrates that this thing is fuelled by adults (predominantly males) who are bitter that they can’t convincingly pass for the opposite sex and wish in hindsight that their body had remained as it was pre-puberty. The problem is that it causes physical side-effects and there is no credible evidence that it alleviates psychological symptoms either. The vast majority of children with GD will desist after puberty and surely even the most ardent of trans activists would see an acceptance of your own body as a preferable outcome to a life of medicalisation?*

• this question was disingenuous. Obviously I realise that they are very much think that medical transition is a much better outcome than desisting and don’t give a crap about the side effects and impacts on personal relationships etc.

It’s shocking that people see what has happened to Jazz and think “yep, that’s the future for all these kids, let’s get cracking.”

Yes, NotBad, I think it takes a special kind of confidence to consider presenting that evidence!

I find it hugely concerning when adults are trying to live a life of “passing” vicariously through a random cohort of children, and be damned with the consequences for them.

Adults who, based on their own posts, have had children of their own, so presumably a sex life too, yet would happily deny that to others.

@StellaAndCrow

Is the Tavistock's appeal going to be "yes, we know these treatments don't have a good result, and there's life long side effects, but we want to continue giving them to children anyway"?

Well, quite

But its the only puberty a child can have. I mean they don't have the organs for any other kind.

There are side effects from men taking testosterone and woman taking oestrogen, even taking their own hormones, let alone the wrong ones.

Yes, and how old is Jazz now - 19 or 20 ? To me they don't seem as "mature" as others of that age. And again I wonder who it benefits to stop children maturing naturally.

I went through a testosterone puberty. It made my gender dysphoria considerable worse. You'll find it's the same for almost every trans adult who didn't have access to blockers. If puberty makes you comfortable with your body, why do people like me even exist?

For a small group of people, transition helps and these people will still have GD after puberty. For the majority, they will desist after puberty and medical intervention will not help but actually make their lives worse. We have to work out whether we protect the larger group who will desist or give early treatment to all, meaning that there will be kids with irreversible changes to their bodies as a result of medicalisation. It’s harsh on the ones who persist but I can’t see how the balance can come down in favour of anything other than erring on the side of caution. It’s objectively a better outcome that a child with GD goes through an entirely natural process and then has medical intervention when old enough (even if they can’t then pass) than if a child is given drugs that irreversibly change their body out of accordance with natural development which they then later regret when older.

@NotBadConsidering

It’s shocking that people see what has happened to Jazz and think “yep, that’s the future for all these kids, let’s get cracking.”

How do you think Jazz would have felt to develop a beard, a broken voice and a masculine body shape?

@Whatwouldscullydo

But its the only puberty a child can have. I mean they don't have the organs for any other kind.

There are side effects from men taking testosterone and woman taking oestrogen, even taking their own hormones, let alone the wrong ones.

Trans women on oestrogen have their risk of breast cancer increased 46 fold. I wonder how many adult trans women on oestrogen are aware of this and have been told about this published study by their treating doctors?

www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1652

Tbats certainly something I've noticed.

They seemingly go from being the most articulate toddlers coming out witg phrases like " when is God going to correct his mistake and give me a penis/vagina" at a time most of us are trying to stop ours from eating the cat food, to incredibly immature young adults. Young adults very self centred to. I mean its not their fault ajd I imagine in order to try ahd make them feel better as they were growing up they were perhaps over indulged in desperation to try and cheer them up/make them happy. But it definitely shows when they get older.

Adults who, based on their own posts, have had children of their own, so presumably a sex life too, yet would happily deny that to others.

Yes, and I remember Jazz saying that they hadn't had an orgasm (neither had I at that age) but had been told it was "like a sneeze". I remember that description from a book given to children i.e. before they develop sexually. Jazz (and others like them) will NEVER develop past this.

Positrans

You talk about "extensive surgery", when everyone knows that very few transgender people have any surgery whatsoever, and when they do it is largely cosmetic.

How do you think Jazz would have felt to develop a beard, a broken voice and a masculine body shape?

Who knows? It’s clearly not possible to determine this, but it’s equally not possible to extrapolate that it would have automatically have been negative.

On the flip side, we know that there have been 4 surgeries carried out on Jazz as a result of technical difficulties and complications, including one needed to relocate the “clitoris”

www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/i-am-jazz-why-did-jazz-jennings-need-a-fourth-gender-confirmation-surgery-after-complications.html/

This is iatrogenic harm caused by doctors.

but had been told it was "like a sneeze"

Yes. I would have gladly signed it away if I thought it was only like a sneeze.

There's just no appropriate way to explain it to a child. They'll never understand it until they're old enough and have experienced it.

Like a sneeze, ffs.

I think this article should have been written by either the BBC's legal correspondent or their health correspondent. Not their LGBT correspondent. The world of LGBT is entirely political and this is a health and/or a legal matter.

I can't remember the exact stats but isn't it the case that several research studies have shown that at least 90% of minors with gender dysphoria grow out of it by the end of puberty and are happy with their bio sex. I'm not aware of a foolproof test to identify the other children who won't grow out of it. So if 100 children go to the Tavistock and get PBs, on their own stats, 99 will probably proceed to CSHs. The GD is thus baked in. 90 or more would have desisted, but now, however they feel, their bodies are permanently changed. Positrans seems to be saying this is OK because the other kids who are still trans will look more like their target sex - if they are male. Females, as noted above, won't because they will be too short to pass as adult males.

And using suicide to push blockers and transition surely goes against usual medical sense.
e.g. a teenager is suicidal and spent time in intensive care (as described in the article) - surely that is not a good time to rush into a non-reversible treatment - surely someone's capacity to make any serious decision would be questionable at that point?