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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ben Hunte BBC article about puberty blocker ban

336 replies

risefromyourgrave · 22/12/2020 09:58

Not biased at all Hmm maybe they’re trying to appease the people upset by big meanie Amol Rajan....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55369784

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 23/12/2020 19:14

Wow. That is blistering. I will try and copy and paste.

ArabellaScott · 23/12/2020 19:17

Ah, it's jpegs. Cannae, sorry. Screenshot of the bit that struck me as very cogent:

Also the fact that 10 doctors had to sign anonymously, 'owing to the hostile nature of the debate'. Wow.

Ben Hunte BBC article about puberty blocker ban
Datun · 23/12/2020 19:58

I have no idea why it was deleted !

Datun · 23/12/2020 20:02

Yes, that letter makes the bbc look complicit and everyone else look damningly self interested.

Datun · 23/12/2020 21:16

Ah, I've been informed about the part that was against the guidelines. It was my own opinion, but apparently not very civil.

So I am rephrasing what I said, because my point still stands.

in order to talk about what constitutes gender dysphoria, I said:

A young woman sought to transition, in order to eliminate every trace of her vagina. Because her father was raping her, in her vagina. She was genuinely gender dysphoric.

The reply was:

That’s someone trying to escape abuse and the trauma of abuse, not genuine gender dysphoria. That’s the point of differential diagnosis. Genuine gender dysphoria is caused by an underlying cross-sex core gender identity.

To which I responded (with amendments to remain within guidelines):

I, personally, and I'm just talking about myself, don't believe in a cross sex gender identity. Nothing anyone has ever said has convinced me, personally, otherwise.

The overwhelming impression to me is either buying wholesale into stereotypes, a rejection of toxic masculinity, a fetish, or a desire to opt out of your sex because it's giving you trauma.

Every single word that I have ever listened to, or read, quite patently backs up these reasons, to me.

The term gender dysphoria means distress at your anatomy. The woman I referred to absolutely had that. It's not reserved for some kind of internal essence - a concept that some people enjoy, but in terms of evidence, doesn't exist.

Neither does it form any part of the official diagnostic criteria.

I'm putting the last part in italics, because, to me, it's the most important bit.

Melroses · 23/12/2020 21:35

Thank you Datun. Very clear and well articulated.

Datun · 23/12/2020 21:54

@Melroses

Thank you Datun. Very clear and well articulated.
Thank you.
gardenbird48 · 23/12/2020 22:19

Apparently actor/activist David Paisley has a contact at the BBC who told him that the level of complaints about this article was higher than the positive letters Grin so is now encouraging more letters praising it to be sent.

It shouldn’t be possible to decide which facts are true by a popularity vote surely?

Even the revised article is so badly written that it is annoying to read. I think the amazing writers on here could have done a significantly better job!!

Typesofcatalogue · 23/12/2020 22:39

We all have a human identity. Ie we know we are a person. Our sense of what sex we are is part of that. For most people they know what sex they are because of what their body is and that becomes part of their identity. Some people develop an early identification with the opposite sex despite the sex of their body. The sex of their body does not convince them they are that sex - their cross sex identity starts to develop before they include the sex of their body. So the sex of their body does not become integrated in their developing sense of self.

I think we do have to row back on the recent escalation of numbers of children treated with blockers. I’m not convinced how useful blockers are as puberty is both the cure (in the majority of cases) and the diagnosis (in the few who persist). Halting natal puberty delays the inevitable. (Although there maybe very occasional exceptions in complex cases).

Personally I think intensive therapy followed by cross sex hormones for the persisters is more appropriate but the debate is at what age and I suspect the range is somewhere 16-18. With waiting lists it will be more likely the older end. I saw that one pp said age 25 but not sure that is going to be a majority view of health/ psych professionals.

I also think that the more a young child socially transitions the more painful natal puberty is going to be regardless of the eventual outcome. But then we are at... Oliver wants to wear a dress and call himself Jane... do we let him? How far does that go and at what point does Oliver have to accept he is a boy and how do you know he really has? Or do you stop that behaviour and risk further problems and self hatred in adulthood?

I acknowledge this is really difficult but don’t see the practical solutions here very often. I do agree though we need to go back to viewing this as a medical condition (with compassion) and not a lifestyle choice to promote.

ArabellaScott · 23/12/2020 23:19

Thanks, Datun, for rewriting and posting.

Datun · 23/12/2020 23:24

@Typesofcatalogue

We all have a human identity. Ie we know we are a person. Our sense of what sex we are is part of that. For most people they know what sex they are because of what their body is and that becomes part of their identity. Some people develop an early identification with the opposite sex despite the sex of their body. The sex of their body does not convince them they are that sex - their cross sex identity starts to develop before they include the sex of their body. So the sex of their body does not become integrated in their developing sense of self.

I think we do have to row back on the recent escalation of numbers of children treated with blockers. I’m not convinced how useful blockers are as puberty is both the cure (in the majority of cases) and the diagnosis (in the few who persist). Halting natal puberty delays the inevitable. (Although there maybe very occasional exceptions in complex cases).

Personally I think intensive therapy followed by cross sex hormones for the persisters is more appropriate but the debate is at what age and I suspect the range is somewhere 16-18. With waiting lists it will be more likely the older end. I saw that one pp said age 25 but not sure that is going to be a majority view of health/ psych professionals.

I also think that the more a young child socially transitions the more painful natal puberty is going to be regardless of the eventual outcome. But then we are at... Oliver wants to wear a dress and call himself Jane... do we let him? How far does that go and at what point does Oliver have to accept he is a boy and how do you know he really has? Or do you stop that behaviour and risk further problems and self hatred in adulthood?

I acknowledge this is really difficult but don’t see the practical solutions here very often. I do agree though we need to go back to viewing this as a medical condition (with compassion) and not a lifestyle choice to promote.

Personally, for me, the first practical solution would be to stop teaching it in schools. Restrict Internet advocacy and promotion. And get to grips with what pornography is doing to young girls and boys.

Teach children that gender stereotypes generally from a hierarchy with women and girls at the bottom, and why they are avidly promoted. How they manifested and exactly how to recognise them.

If someone thinks they identify with or as the opposite sex, the first question should be how. Once you get an answer to that, the rest should follow.

Someone's sex has got nothing to do with identity, and everything to do with their body. If I woke up tomorrow in the body of a man, I would be a man. My sex is a description of my reproductive potential. It's got nothing to do with my thoughts or feelings.

This idea that your sex is somehow outside of your biological anatomy is what is leading children and teens to imagine that sex is a spectrum with any number between male and female. And it's all based on thoughts.

Meanwhile almost all the adults are identifying is either male or female.

The DfE made a damn good start by saying the born in the wrong body narrative is wrong. And gender stereotypes must not be related to an identity, and everything else must be based on evidence. Actual evidence.

Datun · 23/12/2020 23:26

@ArabellaScott

Thanks, Datun, for rewriting and posting.
You're welcome. Smile
ArabellaScott · 23/12/2020 23:37

Yes, indeed. A 'gender identity' is an idea or belief. That's it. That's the sum total of it.

Some things can not be completely known (existence or non-existence of a deity/god, say). There, we are bound to respect the belief or non-belief of others.

When there is clear and present evidence proving a simple fact, we are not bound to go along with a delusional belief or mistaken idea.

Our biological sex is for 99.9999% of people very clearly and straightforwardly known, easily observed and definitely verifiable.

Our thoughts, ideas, feelings and emotions are our own, unique to us (despite various patterns and commonalities) and are not predicated on our sex.

OldCrone · 24/12/2020 00:09

Some people develop an early identification with the opposite sex despite the sex of their body. The sex of their body does not convince them they are that sex - their cross sex identity starts to develop before they include the sex of their body. So the sex of their body does not become integrated in their developing sense of self.

What you're describing is a disorder. It isn't a normal state to be so alienated from you're own body. And what would cause a small child to have an 'identification with the opposite sex'? That could only be about stereotypes, because they have been told that certain clothes or behaviours are only for the opposite sex.

The solution is to do away with the stereotypes and make sure children who are genuinely confused or alienated from their bodies get appropriate therapy.

It has been suggested that for some people with gender dysphoria the problem may be neurological rather than psychological. This makes it difficult to treat but it helps no one to pretend that people can change sex or that they actually are the opposite sex just because they suffer from such a condition.

Oliver wants to wear a dress and call himself Jane...do we let him? How far does that go and at what point does Oliver have to accept he is a boy and how do you know he really has? Or do you stop that behaviour and risk further problems and self hatred in adulthood?

Why do you have to stop the behaviour? Why can't Oliver wear a dress? It's only stereotypes which say he can't. If he dislikes his name he can choose one he prefers. It doesn't help him to tell him he can be a girl if he wants to and that he can change sex.

OldCrone · 24/12/2020 00:10

(and I do know the difference between you're and your)

Datun · 24/12/2020 00:23

Oliver wants to wear a dress and call himself Jane...do we let him?

These children aren't thinking, oh, I can't wait to have this treatment because then I'll be a boy with breasts. Or I can't wait to have this treatment because then I'll be a girl with a beard and receding hairline.

No, they're thinking I can't wait to have this treatment, because then I won't be the sex I am.

Which is quite clearly not true. It's setting them up for a lifetime of conflict.

NotBadConsidering · 24/12/2020 02:13

And I had a post deleted for indicating the same thing about genital surgery. The expectations and promises from surgeons of what the creation of a “vagina” from prepubertal tissue will bring are enormously different to the realities.

Trans people, and specifically in this scenario of those who were on puberty blockers as children, are victims of cavalier surgeons who do not place the patients’ best interests first. They are being treated appallingly, and I cannot fathom how we are the bad guys and get posts deleted for pointing this out and for wanting high standard healthcare for trans people, while others are happy to accept medical staff acting without boundaries and subject trans people to substandard care.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/12/2020 07:54

This idea that your sex is somehow outside of your biological anatomy is what is leading children and teens to imagine that sex is a spectrum with any number between male and female. And it's all based on thoughts.

Yes, and it's clear when you go on Twitter, that so many of them think you just choose a "gender" according to your personality. It's an in group label. No one wants to be "cis". It's a social phenomenon.

We can't make laws to protect the people who need them based on this, there at the very least needs to be clearer parameters of what "trans" is and an acknowledgment that not everyone who affects different pronouns is likely to have gender dysphoria.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/12/2020 07:55

No, they're thinking I can't wait to have this treatment, because then I won't be the sex I am.

Which is quite clearly not true. It's setting them up for a lifetime of conflict.

YY. It's not possible to change sex and this should be made absolutely, explicitly clear. Not everyone is likely to validate you.

umbel · 24/12/2020 08:43

**Oliver wants to wear a dress and call himself Jane...do we let him?

My son wanted to wear a dress pretty much all the time between the ages of 4-10. We let him. We tried to build his resilience against people who would censure him for this. We tried to show him that others too had transgressed stereotypes. We were open about him being a boy who liked ‘girl’ things, and encouraged him to do the same. We told him we loved him as he was and were proud of his uniqueness. What we did NOT do was tell him he was a girl, or that he could become a girl. We did NOT tell others he was a girl or would become a girl.

In my opinion, the move to ‘socially transition’ is deeply misguided and plays a significant part in cementing the idea of a ‘trans’ identity in children who are nothing of the sort. The lengths some parents go to and the requirement for the child to be complicit in the deception make it almost impossible for either child or parent to back away from.

FWIW my son is now sporting a shaved head and a tracksuit and he knows, as he always has done, that he is a boy, whatever he wears or plays with, whatever he calls himself or however he behaves. He knows he is loved as he is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/12/2020 08:46

In my opinion, the move to ‘socially transition’ is deeply misguided and plays a significant part in cementing the idea of a ‘trans’ identity in children who are nothing of the sort. The lengths some parents go to and the requirement for the child to be complicit in the deception make it almost impossible for either child or parent to back away from.

Yes, I think that's a very important part of it all.

gardenbird48 · 24/12/2020 08:55

I think we do have to row back on the recent escalation of numbers of children treated with blockers. I’m not convinced how useful blockers are as puberty is both the cure (in the majority of cases) and the diagnosis (in the few who persist). Halting natal puberty delays the inevitable. (Although there maybe very occasional exceptions in complex cases).

Absolutely agree - as close to zero as possible given the long term effects for such little benefit (if any) and the experimental nature of this route.

It continues to astound me that with all the money being thrown at this that there haven't been proper studies and data on patients properly gathered and analysed.

All that 'awareness raising', instead of highlighting the actual issues, that there is a lack of mental health care and a lack of research into the best way of treating dysphoria - just becomes a marketing exercise, selling the body dissatisfaction in the same way that the fashion mags have been doing for years.

I also think that the more a young child socially transitions the more painful natal puberty is going to be regardless of the eventual outcome. But then we are at... Oliver wants to wear a dress and call himself Jane... do we let him? How far does that go and at what point does Oliver have to accept he is a boy and how do you know he really has? Or do you stop that behaviour and risk further problems and self hatred in adulthood?

Yes, I think kindly and gently support Oliver to be his best self (maybe even change his name to a more neutral one but I don't think a feminine one, that creates a false impression for others) - he can wear what he likes and play with the toys he likes but kindness is to be honest with him and ensure he understands he is a boy and that won't change.

It makes me think a little of when people have to come to terms with big things in their lives - like if someone has a terminal diagnosis, it is not kind to hide that from them. It is better to tell them the truth so they can make their own informed decisions and live out their days in the way they choose.

The adults involved with these children don't seem to have the concept of 'coming to terms' with reality. There are many unpleasant truths in life that we have to deal with and suggesting to an impressionable child that their immutable sex is a reality they don't have to accept is not kind.

The age of 25 has been mentioned because that is when the frontal lobes are supposed to mature and people are more able to make life decisions on an adult basis. I'm not sure it would be practical or desirable to restrict drastic cosmetic surgery to people over the age of 25 but considering that doctors are well aware of age and possible regret when they are restricting sterilisation treatment in women to 30+ I think there is an argument for urging extreme caution.

It is well known that teenagers' brains are developing at the rate of a toddler's and their sense of risk taking is limited and impulsive behaviour is more likely. Knowing what I and my peer group were like in our teens I think they should be strongly discouraged from making any irreversible decisions and the 80% desistance in dysphoric children bears that out.

It would be really helpful to have some more data about the 20% that don't desist from these thoughts - I feel like we know very little about them. We are hearing from some on here but they haven't had drastic surgery and, while they say they would have preferred to have surgery at a young age, that is no guarantee that they would be happier in their current lives.

As some have found, once they have had the surgery, their lives actually get worse and having a chronically unhealthy body makes them understandably less happy.

teawamutu · 24/12/2020 08:57

I've complained again, pointing out the GGP connection to the underage patient who did commit suicide, the Samaritans guidelines and the utter unsuitability of Haddock as a source. Will report back if I hear anything.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 24/12/2020 10:03

FWIW my son is now sporting a shaved head and a tracksuit and he knows, as he always has done, that he is a boy, whatever he wears or plays with, whatever he calls himself or however he behaves. He knows he is loved as he is

and that is the healthy approach

how anyone can fail to see the homophobia and sexism inherent in trying to convince a child they are a member of the opposite sex rather than just accepting them as they are is an utter mystery to me

you sound like a brilliant parent umbel

WorriedForWomen · 24/12/2020 10:13

Yep, @BernardBlackMissesLangCleg, sounds like you and your son are doing great.

Pre-puberty, I was a serious tomboy, was usually mistaken for a boy and used (just "felt right with") male pronouns when I could. My parents were similar to you - accepted me as the non-conforming female I was. If I could have opted out of female puberty, I probably would have done, but as a healthy female, it was just never an option, so I got through it. I'm now a happy, healthy middle aged woman, who still prefers combat trousers to dresses.