Would you ok your son wearing a dress?

[KristinaJup]

Candace Owens recently tweeted (in response to Harry Styles wearing a dress on a magazine cover) "Bring Back Manly Men".. amongst other things.

Who really cares if a guy wears tutus and glittery dresses? Prince was hot af in his heels and Makeup.

Imo I would have no problem with it at all if my son wanted to put on a skirt but the tweet gained a lot of traction and I saw quite a few memes and lots of fingers pointed at feminism for "ruining men"

If we carry on this way the next thing will be....women should not be wearing trousers! What do you think?

@ncbby

I wouldn't choose a facial piercing or visible tattoo over my chosen profession.

Right, and that's more than fair enough, but there are people in the world who would choose visible tattoos over certain careers. There are also ways to cover and remove tattoos in the context of getting a skull tattoo and then deciding you want to become a physiotherapist, as the example you provided.

You're spot on. You'd cover the tattoo you wouldn't display it. You'd wear the trousers to conform to what was expected - not wear the dress. Because it'd be inappropriate

@FourPlatinumRings

Eh? You are making things up now. I personally have said nothing of the kind; quite the contrary.

I'm not only talking to you though, am I? I've paid zero attention to the individual posters on this thread, but have responded to ideas presented.

Are you unable to distinguish between the objective idea of a boy or man can wear a dress if they like and the subjective idea that for me personally I would not want a partner who wore dresses?

Nope, in fact I am making that exact point. There are a number of posters on this thread (go back a few pages, it's a point that's been made numerous times) implying that women suggesting that they'd let their son wear dresses are in some way being disingenuous if that's not a characteristic they'd value in a romantic partner. That's the point I've been arguing- that you don't need to personally find men in dresses appealing to support your son's right to wear one.

I think it is disingenuous. I'm honest enough to admit I would have let my son wear a dress if he wanted, but I do not want a partner who wears dresses.

Right. Even more reason that you should exercise your right to be a parent and say no to a child making decisions that they have no understanding of the implications of in the example of the dress. You're right - they're a child and we do have authority over their unwise decisions in this example of dress wearing for boys.

Sorry that was to @ncbby

You'd cover the tattoo you wouldn't display it. You'd wear the trousers to conform to what was expected - not wear the dress. Because it'd be inappropriate

Again, pretty sure in this country, day and age you'd not find a HR department willing to try and start disciplinary proceedings on a male professional in a dress provided it was a suitably professional dress, but anyway, we're not talking about professional people and we're not discussing whether men should wear dresses at all times. The topic question is, should a little boy be allowed to wear a dress? And there's nothing inappropriate about that.

You're spot on. You'd cover the tattoo you wouldn't display it. You'd wear the trousers to conform to what was expected - not wear the dress. Because it'd be inappropriate

If I'm completely honest, I don't think I would cover it in the same way the other poster wouldn't get tattoos at all. I'd probably fit into the category of "if you don't want to employ me because I have tattoos then I don't want to be employed by you". But I'm quite a brash person by nature I think, and I have a harder time with conformity. I'm just hoping we get to a point of everyone being allowed to wear what they like to wear when appropriate, because in this context it's just someone wanting to wear a slightly longer piece of fabric.

@ncbby

as long as it's not a fetish/ you don't get a kick out of it/ you're not co-opting me in to your fantasy

But it's not any of those things for little boys. I'd like to reach a point in society where we can have gender-neutral clothing (in the context of everyone being allowed to wear blue / pink "gendered" clothing irrespective of their biological sex) and then we can see where gender identity stands in that reality. I think this is corroborating the idea in kids that "only girls wear dresses" which I don't think is necessarily right or true.

I think this is true of very little boys, certainly.

Is it true of boys in the middle years or early puberty or teens? Maybe, but there is some indications that things like fetishes can begin in those periods, and they are often related to chance exposure. It's not something that is very comfortable to talk about, but I don't know that it isn't relevant to people's feelings of caution.

I have serious doubts that it is realistic to ever have non-gendered things like clothing. There are societies where clothing is almost identical, but that is usually because there is limited capacity to differentiate. And there are still typically other visible markers of gender in those cultures, language use, body decoration, mannerisms, the physical body itself may be more visible, activities may be more gendered. Where there have been attempts to suppress things like gender expression in clothing, people tend to subvert it as soon as they can get away with it.

People in general are too interested in sex and the differences it involves to stop making reference to them in material culture.

I think it is disingenuous. I'm honest enough to admit I would have let my son wear a dress if he wanted, but I do not want a partner who wears dresses.

Well that means it's not disingenuous, don't you see? Because you genuinely would let your son wear a dress even though you'd not want a romantic partner to do so. I'm arguing with those suggesting that people who say they'd let their son wear a dress are in fact lying and just saying it to be cool because they'd not want their partner to wear one.

@FourPlatinumRings

I think it is disingenuous. I'm honest enough to admit I would have let my son wear a dress if he wanted, but I do not want a partner who wears dresses.

Well that means it's not disingenuous, don't you see? Because you genuinely would let your son wear a dress even though you'd not want a romantic partner to do so. I'm arguing with those suggesting that people who say they'd let their son wear a dress are in fact lying and just saying it to be cool because they'd not want their partner to wear one.

@DidoLamenting

Has been very honest, unlike some people..... trying to deflect their answers, which I’m not altogether sure I believe on an Internet forum.

Has been very honest, unlike some people..... trying to deflect their answers, which I’m not altogether sure I believe on an Internet forum

Could you quote this? I'm not sure if you mean me.

Is it true of boys in the middle years or early puberty or teens? Maybe, but there is some indications that things like fetishes can begin in those periods, and they are often related to chance exposure. It's not something that is very comfortable to talk about, but I don't know that it isn't relevant to people's feelings of caution.

Isn't a fetish usually based on the taboo? So remove the taboo around men wearing dresses and you remove the potential for said fetish? I imagine there aren't Scottish men with kilt fetishes, because men wearing them is entirely acceptable. Happy to be proven wrong because I don't know much about the psychology of fetishes.

Has been very honest, unlike some people..... trying to deflect their answers, which I’m not altogether sure I believe on an Internet forum.

Mate, it's 32 minutes past midnight and my toddler is going to wake me up at half five. Could we cut the cryptic crossword stuff and just say what we mean?

Isn't a fetish usually based on the taboo? So remove the taboo around men wearing dresses and you remove the potential for said fetish?

That's actually an interesting point! The amount of young men (who I've either dated or had friendships with) who have foot fetishes is actually very surprisingly high. It's slightly unrelated but I think it may be because hardcore porn is so normalised, and I think feet are still something people commonly have an "ew" response to which maybe makes it attractive in a repressed way.

@ncbby

as long as it's not a fetish/ you don't get a kick out of it/ you're not co-opting me in to your fantasy

But it's not any of those things for little boys. I'd like to reach a point in society where we can have gender-neutral clothing (in the context of everyone being allowed to wear blue / pink "gendered" clothing irrespective of their biological sex) and then we can see where gender identity stands in that reality. I think this is corroborating the idea in kids that "only girls wear dresses" which I don't think is necessarily right or true.

I wasn't talking about little boys. I was talking about all grown up men.

Sorry didn't link that at all to the point ^^ I think it may be the same for men who like to wear dresses for the sexual fetish, I think it might decrease if non-fetishist men wore dresses or skirts casually because the stigma or shame would be removed

@ncbby

Has been very honest, unlike some people..... trying to deflect their answers, which I’m not altogether sure I believe on an Internet forum

Could you quote this? I'm not sure if you mean me.

Quote what? It’s my opinion.

The question was asked whether those willing to send their DC to school in a dress, would be equally happy about a date turning up in a dress.

@DidoLamenting

Answered honestly and said ‘actually no I wouldn’t’. Totally respect her openness and honesty.

No one else has answered and it’s appears to have been turned in to something more than the question that was asked.

I actually wasn’t referring to you at all. To be fair to you, you answered the question in the first paragraph saying about your DH looking nice in a dress!

I wasn't talking about little boys. I was talking about all grown up men.

And yet this thread is about children... All right guys, this is getting circular and I really need to sleep. Thanks for the interesting debate. Night all.

Okay that's great @TableFlowerss. I was just asking you to quote anything you thought was skirting around the issue as I thought you might mean me. E.g you might have thought I was answering to prove a point rather than what I actually felt (which I wasn't, he's a very pretty man in a dress )

@FourPlatinumRings

Has been very honest, unlike some people..... trying to deflect their answers, which I’m not altogether sure I believe on an Internet forum.

Mate, it's 32 minutes past midnight and my toddler is going to wake me up at half five. Could we cut the cryptic crossword stuff and just say what we mean?

Don’t mate me. You’ve deflected every opportunity to answer the question posed by @Savourysenorita

Wasn’t a hard question really....

@FourPlatinumRings

Is it true of boys in the middle years or early puberty or teens? Maybe, but there is some indications that things like fetishes can begin in those periods, and they are often related to chance exposure. It's not something that is very comfortable to talk about, but I don't know that it isn't relevant to people's feelings of caution.

Isn't a fetish usually based on the taboo? So remove the taboo around men wearing dresses and you remove the potential for said fetish? I imagine there aren't Scottish men with kilt fetishes, because men wearing them is entirely acceptable. Happy to be proven wrong because I don't know much about the psychology of fetishes.

In a way, but this comes back to the question - is this a boy wearing a dress, or a boy dressing as a woman?

If the idea is to appear as a woman, the dress is just a prop, and any other prop that signals woman will do.

The kilt is an interesting point, or a sarong, or any of the other outfits that are materially the same as dresses or skirts but are considered men's clothing. Why would Harry Styles or some random bloke or boy not wear a kilt, which would fit and look better on him than it is likely to on a woman, if he wants a skirt type garment? A sarong or centurion style skirt might be a bit too culturally weird though could be possible, but a kilt is pretty standardly recognised as a male garment.

One answer might be that it's because they don't want a garment associated with men, they are looking for one associated with women. Why?

No one else has answered and it’s appears to have been turned in to something more than the question that was asked.

FWIW, DH generally wears his hair long but wouldn't wear a dress (I have asked). I wouldn't mind at all if he did.

The kilt is an interesting point, or a sarong, or any of the other outfits that are materially the same as dresses or skirts but are considered men's clothing. Why would Harry Styles or some random bloke or boy not wear a kilt, which would fit and look better on him than it is likely to on a woman, if he wants a skirt type garment? A sarong or centurion style skirt might be a bit too culturally weird though could be possible, but a kilt is pretty standardly recognised as a male garment.

I'd have thought it was cultural appropriation to wear a kilt if not Scottish. Could be wrong though.

GAH! Must put the bloody phone down...

@FourPlatinumRings

I wasn't talking about little boys. I was talking about all grown up men.

And yet this thread is about children... All right guys, this is getting circular and I really need to sleep. Thanks for the interesting debate. Night all.

Why do you keep coming back to that? As if no other topic is allowed? The thread started considering grown ups on the first page. The opening post was about Harry Styles. He's not a child.

On a final note - you say you have a toddler, now they may be your 4th child....or your first.

If they are your first, it would be interesting to see if you still hold the same views when they’re at school and trying to fit in! It’s easier to have ideological views when you’re not faced with the reality.

I grew up in Scotland (mostly) and I like the look of a man in a kilt but I would usually think it had some kind of familial or cultural tie to it. I'm not sure there's a "Styles" tartan either