Would you ok your son wearing a dress?

[KristinaJup]

Candace Owens recently tweeted (in response to Harry Styles wearing a dress on a magazine cover) "Bring Back Manly Men".. amongst other things.

Who really cares if a guy wears tutus and glittery dresses? Prince was hot af in his heels and Makeup.

Imo I would have no problem with it at all if my son wanted to put on a skirt but the tweet gained a lot of traction and I saw quite a few memes and lots of fingers pointed at feminism for "ruining men"

If we carry on this way the next thing will be....women should not be wearing trousers! What do you think?

But I think many women might suspect the guy is a creep. And they don't want their child to come off as (or actually be) a creep.

I fail to see how wearing a dress would make someone a 'creep', but regardless, this thread is not about men. It's about children. By the time he's an adult he can don whatever clothes he likes and his mum has no power whatsoever to stop him. This is about children and whether you as a parent send the message that if a boy wears a dress he is not a boy or the message that boys can wear dresses.

[quote Savourysenorita]@TableFlowerss very well put. Excellent point well made[/quote]
Thank you 😊

I fail to see how wearing a dress would make someone a 'creep

You must have missed the Grayson Perry and the bloke in pencil skirts and high heels threads then. Plenty of posters think they are creepy.

Why are you so reluctant to consider the situation when little boy in a dress is a teenager or a 30 or 40 year old? The thread is about children- children grow up and in case the thread has been considering men for several pages.

It isn't a weird argument. The opening thread was about whether one would let one's son wear a dress. If you're fine with it's a perfectly logical next question to say, OK you're fine with your son wearing a dress would you be equally happy if someone else's grown up son turned up wearing a dress for a date with you?

No, I'm sorry, it's very weird to my mind to suggest your kids should only do things you'd find attractive on a date. 'If you're fine with your son playing laser tag lockins every Saturday, you should be fine with your date doing the same.' 'If you're fine with your son playing Warhammer tournaments at the weekend, you should be fine with your date doing the same.' 'If you're fine with your son dying his hair blue, you should be fine with your date doing the same."

Nope. Not all people of one sex need to be attracted to all the people of the other sex. My son does not need to grow into someone I'd be attracted to. He just needs to grow up to be a happy young man who is comfortable in his own skin and kind to others. I don't think enforcing nonsensical stereotypes will aid in that endeavour.

I found the pencil skirt and high heel bloke a bit creepy. I don't wear those sorts of clothes so I assume the women who do are doing so because it makes them feel sexy? I'm sure there must be other reasons but personally I see them as "sexy clothes" and nothing more. They're hardly practical. But until I can understand a reason why a woman would wear them outside of "feeling sexy" then I naturally assume that bloke was doing it because equally it made him feel sexy. And that's the bit I don't understand and hence... creepy.

I don't think "dress" automatically means something has to be sexy or frilly or pink or sparkly. So it's a tricky one to bring the conversation to a specific type of dress.

@FourPlatinumRings

It isn't a weird argument. The opening thread was about whether one would let one's son wear a dress. If you're fine with it's a perfectly logical next question to say, OK you're fine with your son wearing a dress would you be equally happy if someone else's grown up son turned up wearing a dress for a date with you?

No, I'm sorry, it's very weird to my mind to suggest your kids should only do things you'd find attractive on a date. 'If you're fine with your son playing laser tag lockins every Saturday, you should be fine with your date doing the same.' 'If you're fine with your son playing Warhammer tournaments at the weekend, you should be fine with your date doing the same.' 'If you're fine with your son dying his hair blue, you should be fine with your date doing the same."

Nope. Not all people of one sex need to be attracted to all the people of the other sex. My son does not need to grow into someone I'd be attracted to. He just needs to grow up to be a happy young man who is comfortable in his own skin and kind to others. I don't think enforcing nonsensical stereotypes will aid in that endeavour.

I think your comparison Is bizarre. You're saying 'a child and adult should be able to wear the same then?' as a comparison. But how is that the same as male /female??

Don't care what my sons wear as long as they don't start telling me what a woman is or isn't and that I have to rename myself "cis woman".

Prince, Bowie & Harry all gorgeous in "feminine" clothes or not. Similarly KD Lang is gorgeous in a "masculine" trouser suit & white shirt or not.

Why are you so reluctant to consider the situation when little boy in a dress is a teenager or a 30 or 40 year old? The thread is about children- children grow up and in case the thread has been considering men for several pages.

Oh, I'm not, but by that point it's well beyond the control of parents and I think it's incredibly naive to think that someone for whom the desire to wear a dress is particularly strong will never act on it as an adult because mummy said not to when they were small. Either it's a passing phase, in which case allowing them to indulge it as kids does no harm and instills a little less prejudice, or it's not. And if it's not, your adult son is either going to do it anyway and hide it from you, going to decide that actually they're probably a woman really, or view themselves as some sort of deviant with what's likely to be no small amount of shame and self-hatred. I don't see why people are clinging to this arbitrary idea that men can't wear dresses, with the only apparent justification being that they personally wouldn't fancy a man that does.

@FourPlatinumRings

But I think many women might suspect the guy is a creep. And they don't want their child to come off as (or actually be) a creep.

I fail to see how wearing a dress would make someone a 'creep', but regardless, this thread is not about men. It's about children. By the time he's an adult he can don whatever clothes he likes and his mum has no power whatsoever to stop him. This is about children and whether you as a parent send the message that if a boy wears a dress he is not a boy or the message that boys can wear dresses.

But when he’s an adult, he can make his own mind up, as you say.

As a child, he won’t realise the potential ridicule that is likely to await him when he gets to school though. That’s where we step in.

As my previous post explains, my 8 year with SEN couldn’t be expected to understand the implications of going out in his PJ’s, so I make the decision on his behalf to save him getting mocked.

People shouldn’t be placing their angst at those that wouldn’t let their sons wear a dress. We’re trying to protect them because we love them.

I’d go mad if I found out my DC were mocking other children (for whatever reason) and they’d get a stern talking to on how we should be accepting. We are accepting of everyone.

Sadly not all parents think that way and their kids bully other children for anything and everything, without consequences. That’s why I wouldn’t let him wear one.

My DH wore one of my short sleeve quite high cut floral dresses once and it actually looked lovely on him. He also sports bright and pastel dress shirts for work and going out, with the pink being my favourite. He looks fantastic in these things, and he could go out in bright pink lippy and some stilettos and I'd still fancy him - he probably wouldn't as he prefers comfort, but you get the idea.

Some PPs will probably respond "you're fake woke, it's easy to say this on an online forum, your husband is probably gay or a fetishist" but I know none of those things are true. I also know that it was enforced in school (and I was not in school that long ago at all) that I wear a skirt rather than trousers and even at 10 or so, I knew how arbitrary and irritating that was.

There is so much internalised misogyny on this thread, which I know PPs will deny because it's internalised, but it's true. You're okay with women wearing trousers but not men wearing dresses? Ask yourself why. And don't say this stuff about "it's unnatural / it doesn't look right" because that's solely social conditioning and you wouldn't be saying it if men in dresses was the norm (and this is ignoring the idea that some dresses look unattractive on a lot of women, but we're not calling them "unnatural"). You're not okay with men looking like women because in this society it's considered embarrassing to be a woman, whether you see that or not. There ARE flattering dresses for men - I can compile a list of dress styles I think would look nice on a man if you'd like examples.

It's not degrading to be female or to present as female. If you want "manly men" for yourself - whatever that means - then that's fine because it's a sexual preference, but your sexual preferences should have no effect on the behaviours of your children. You aren't going to date them later on in life, and however they present (even if it's in dresses) they would find someone who liked them for that look. Not everyone finds it unattractive or wants a "manly man".

In a final section of my tangent, I think it's very odd that FWR is usually a place for people to say; "You don't have to be transgender, you can just enjoy being a male in a dress" yet that is the opposite of what I'm reading here. Or is it just that men presenting femininely in any form is unappealing to you?

Nope. Not all people of one sex need to be attracted to all the people of the other sex. My son does not need to grow into someone I'd be attracted to

Nobody said he did- what an utterly bizarre comment. It looks as if you are constructing tortured false analogies to avoid having to admit, that actually no, you would not date a man in a dress.

I don't know why you think that discussion of adult males isn't allowed or relevant- Kurt Cobain, Harry Styles, Boy George,Marilyn have all been referred to.

I also think it's a very dangerous message to give out to our poor children that you can do whatever you want so long as you're comfortable. You're setting them up for a lifetime of disappointment and mental health problems. No wonder mental health referrals for the young have soared. In the real world you can't just do what you want. Else we'd all lay in until 10 because we don't 'feel comfortable' getting out of bed at 5:30am on a cold and windy December morning. Or we'd all wear our dressing gowns into work because we're 'liberating ourselves'. I actually work in an environment where we're forbidden from wearing facial piercings visible tattoos and have to keep our hair of a natural hue/colour to avoid looking unprofessional. So societal rules do still exist. Like it or not.

I think your comparison Is bizarre. You're saying 'a child and adult should be able to wear the same then?' as a comparison. But how is that the same as male /female??

I'm saying that it's weird to suggest that one's son should only do things that one would find attractive in a partner. I know grown men with blue hair, I know grown men who play Warhammer every weekend. I do not find it attractive. But that doesn't mean I'd try to stop my son from doing it.

* I think your comparison Is bizarre. You're saying 'a child and adult should be able to wear the same then?' as a comparison. But how is that the same as male /female*

@Savourysenorita

I’m struggling to understand the comparison they are making too

I think what we’re saying is completely logical!

I don't see why people are clinging to this arbitrary idea that men can't wear dresses, with the only apparent justification being that they personally wouldn't fancy a man that does

Eh? You are making things up now. I personally have said nothing of the kind; quite the contrary.

Are you unable to distinguish between the objective idea of a boy or man can wear a dress if they like and the subjective idea that for me personally I would not want a partner who wore dresses?

I actually work in an environment where we're forbidden from wearing facial piercings visible tattoos and have to keep our hair of a natural hue/colour to avoid looking unprofessional. So societal rules do still exist. Like it or not.

And if it were important to you to dye your hair or have visible piercings you'd probably choose a different job. The choice is still there. But regardless, would you really suggest we hold our small children to the same standards of professionalism as adults. 'No, you can't dress like a dinosaur- do you think you'd get away with that if you worked at Barclays??'

(I also reckon that these days, a man could probably get away with wearing a dress to work somewhere professional, provided it was a suitably professional looking dress, but that's beside the point).

@FourPlatinumRings

I think your comparison Is bizarre. You're saying 'a child and adult should be able to wear the same then?' as a comparison. But how is that the same as male /female??

I'm saying that it's weird to suggest that one's son should only do things that one would find attractive in a partner. I know grown men with blue hair, I know grown men who play Warhammer every weekend. I do not find it attractive. But that doesn't mean I'd try to stop my son from doing it.

But playing with Warhammer for a young boy I wouldn't say was abnormal. Wearing female clothing out and about - I would say was abnormal for a male CHILD

@FourPlatinumRings

But I think many women might suspect the guy is a creep. And they don't want their child to come off as (or actually be) a creep.

I fail to see how wearing a dress would make someone a 'creep', but regardless, this thread is not about men. It's about children. By the time he's an adult he can don whatever clothes he likes and his mum has no power whatsoever to stop him. This is about children and whether you as a parent send the message that if a boy wears a dress he is not a boy or the message that boys can wear dresses.

I think you are making a bit of a false assumption that the message would be that if a boy wears a dress he is not a boy.

It's quite possible I would imagine to not entertain the idea that what you happen to wear, or want to wear, makes you a boy or a girl, while also saying that some clothing might be only socially appropriate for males or females.

Many of families that seem to most accepting of cross-gendered clothing for kids also seem to buy into gender ideology, too.

But the creep element is pretty key I think if you want to understand why many women would be uncomfortable with the man in the dress. They are concerned that he is not a man in a dress, but a man dressing up as a woman. And you can substitute the dress for any cultural element you like that is associated with one sex.

In a final section of my tangent, I think it's very odd that FWR is usually a place for people to say; "You don't have to be transgender, you can just enjoy being a male in a dress"

Well apart from the fact that the reality of that statement, if it's males over the age of puberty, is that it is heavily qualified by "as long as it's not a fetish/ you don't get a kick out of it/ you're not co-opting me in to your fantasy" etc, etc.

Eh? You are making things up now. I personally have said nothing of the kind; quite the contrary.

I'm not only talking to you though, am I? I've paid zero attention to the individual posters on this thread, but have responded to ideas presented.

Are you unable to distinguish between the objective idea of a boy or man can wear a dress if they like and the subjective idea that for me personally I would not want a partner who wore dresses?

Nope, in fact I am making that exact point. There are a number of posters on this thread (go back a few pages, it's a point that's been made numerous times) implying that women suggesting that they'd let their son wear dresses are in some way being disingenuous if that's not a characteristic they'd value in a romantic partner. That's the point I've been arguing- that you don't need to personally find men in dresses appealing to support your son's right to wear one.

as long as it's not a fetish/ you don't get a kick out of it/ you're not co-opting me in to your fantasy

But it's not any of those things for little boys. I'd like to reach a point in society where we can have gender-neutral clothing (in the context of everyone being allowed to wear blue / pink "gendered" clothing irrespective of their biological sex) and then we can see where gender identity stands in that reality. I think this is corroborating the idea in kids that "only girls wear dresses" which I don't think is necessarily right or true.

@FourPlatinumRings

I actually work in an environment where we're forbidden from wearing facial piercings visible tattoos and have to keep our hair of a natural hue/colour to avoid looking unprofessional. So societal rules do still exist. Like it or not.

And if it were important to you to dye your hair or have visible piercings you'd probably choose a different job. The choice is still there. But regardless, would you really suggest we hold our small children to the same standards of professionalism as adults. 'No, you can't dress like a dinosaur- do you think you'd get away with that if you worked at Barclays??'

(I also reckon that these days, a man could probably get away with wearing a dress to work somewhere professional, provided it was a suitably professional looking dress, but that's beside the point).

That's where you're wrong. I wouldn't choose a facial piercing or visible tattoo over my chosen profession. That's why it's best to educate your children to think long term when getting obvious tattoos or piercings. They might turn around and say 'f you mum I want to be a body artist!' or they may say 'I want to be a physiotherapist. I'm glad you talked me out of that skull drawing on my forearm' but I wouldn't be a good parent if I didn't tell them to think of the future when choosing how to garnish themselves! Regardless of professional suitability - a child still can't always wear what they want. Its OK to say 'no' to a child in 2020

I wouldn't choose a facial piercing or visible tattoo over my chosen profession.

Right, and that's more than fair enough, but there are people in the world who would choose visible tattoos over certain careers. There are also ways to cover and remove tattoos in the context of getting a skull tattoo and then deciding you want to become a physiotherapist, as the example you provided.

I think you are making a bit of a false assumption that the message would be that if a boy wears a dress he is not a boy.

In my experience, kids are very black and white about this sort of stuff. I've had a little girl tell me that she's actually a boy because she likes x and mum says that's for boys, for example. We need to step away from this arbitrary pink/blue, unicorns/dinosaurs, dresses/dear-God-no-you-can't-wear-a-dress-because-you're-a-boy nonsense. It's harmful and ridiculous, quite frankly.

@ncbby

I wouldn't choose a facial piercing or visible tattoo over my chosen profession.

Right, and that's more than fair enough, but there are people in the world who would choose visible tattoos over certain careers. There are also ways to cover and remove tattoos in the context of getting a skull tattoo and then deciding you want to become a physiotherapist, as the example you provided.

Well put.

I'd also add that if they're old enough to be getting tattoos then they're not a child and you've no longer got the authority to say no to them.