Would you ok your son wearing a dress?

[KristinaJup]

Candace Owens recently tweeted (in response to Harry Styles wearing a dress on a magazine cover) "Bring Back Manly Men".. amongst other things.

Who really cares if a guy wears tutus and glittery dresses? Prince was hot af in his heels and Makeup.

Imo I would have no problem with it at all if my son wanted to put on a skirt but the tweet gained a lot of traction and I saw quite a few memes and lots of fingers pointed at feminism for "ruining men"

If we carry on this way the next thing will be....women should not be wearing trousers! What do you think?

@Crystalclair

To those who would allow their son to wear a dress. Would you be attracted to or comfortable with a man you went on a date with if he turned up in a dress??

And just to add to @Crystalclair post,

If he turned up in a dress and lipstick and high heels? Because let’s not discriminate here. Social norms for women include the above as well!

If people are championing the dress then there’s no logic behind not also accepting lipstick and high heels?

Make everyone equal....

Exactly that!

And I doubt very much some of these women would be ok with. But I'm guessing, its MN so they will simply say they would be fine with it.

I don't care what anyone thinks. My opinion is that dresses do not belong on boys/men.

And the argument about a dad not wanting his daughter to wear trousers. Completely bad comparison. No one is looking at boys in dresses thinking 'they just couldn't fancy them"

I must admit, lipsticks and high heels make me uncomfortable. I probably need to unpick why a dress wouldn't bother me but those would cross the line for me. But I'd like to clarify that I'm not saying I'd be happy with a dress because this is anonymous and online and hypothetical and it isn't because I'm "woke". I just don't see dresses as that feminine.

@Crystalclair

To those who would allow their son to wear a dress. Would you be attracted to or comfortable with a man you went on a date with if he turned up in a dress??

So your objection to your young son wearing a dress would be based on the fact you and other random internet women wouldn't fancy him if he did?

And the argument about a dad not wanting his daughter to wear trousers. Completely bad comparison. No one is looking at boys in dresses thinking 'they just couldn't fancy them"

Umm.... That's exactly what several posters on here have said. They like their men manly. They wouldn't fancy a man in a dress. It's a bizarre premise to base your objection on.

@FourPlatinumRings

And the argument about a dad not wanting his daughter to wear trousers. Completely bad comparison. No one is looking at boys in dresses thinking 'they just couldn't fancy them"

Umm.... That's exactly what several posters on here have said. They like their men manly. They wouldn't fancy a man in a dress. It's a bizarre premise to base your objection on.

No it's not! It's nothing to do with sexual attraction! It's a question put to all the mums so comfortable with their sons sporting a dress...why are you OK embarrassing your son in one but if it was your husband you would be aghast /find it funny /be embarrassed/ridicule him. If it's not OK for a grown man then surely it's not worlds away from a little boy wearing it. A man has got a choice and understands the wider implications - a little boy doesn't. It's a total failure of parents to step in and make a decision for them. They're trusting us to do this. They're minors - we're (hopefully) responsible adults. It's gone too far with 'let them choose' 'they're expressing themselves' sometimes as a parent it's our job to say 'no'.

@midgebabe

But as soon as you impose societal norms you could be preventing your child growing up as themselves. You restrict their freedoms. You are accepting and reinforcing pointless limitations. Because they are pointless. Here we are as a society when many are wanting their freedoms not to wear a face mask that protects others, yet we seem to be willing to restrict aspects of dress that harms no one. Bonkers

What does that mean, "growing up as themselves"? It's just clothes. If they lived 1000 years ago, they'd have to wear totally different things, does that mean they'd "not be themselves"?

There is a tendency to say that restricting boys from wearing dresses pushes them to identify as trans if they like dresses. I'm not convinced of that - gender ideology has appeared at a time when we have a lot more freedom than most people have had historically over dress. In fact to a large extent we are encouraged to show "who we are" through our consumer choices, and that this is somehow important to being authentic and free. What's more, you quite often see families that have early on encourages cross-gender choices also jumping on to the gender ideology bandwagon.

This idea that our attraction to or interest in certain fashion choices is actually an important part of our authentic self is a lot more implicated in gender ideology than whether fashion has different stylistic elements for men or women.

I do remember my a lady in our friendship group doing this at a local soft play / role play kids centre. She was all 'ooh look little Tommy. Look at these lovely princess dresses. Do you like this one?' he then responded 'yeh. Wear it?' que over zealous smiling 'of course you can Tommy!' and proceeds to get him in it. This boy in question is a big lad for his age. Tall and well built and the poor thing I was cringing for him running around in that elsa dress. My two just looked at me baffled. It was actually awkward trying to answer those questions on the walk home. Of course I answered them in a pc way 'well if he feels comfortable and that's what he wants to wear that's up to him'. But I was cringing inside. I will add he was given several looks by quite a significant amount of parents in there of bafflement. I just felt really sorry for him. This same lady also suggested on a group meet up that we bring some 'dolls and prams' for the boys to play with. My boys just aren't interested. It's like she's pushing an agenda that actually gives md quite a lot of awkward follow up question. One of mine actually said re the dress incident 'I thought he looked silly mummy' and actually embarrassingly so did I. But I couldn't agree so I had to just appease the situation and say 'well everybody likes different things. He's not harming anyone' but I did worry about confusing them.

If it's not OK for a grown man then surely it's not worlds away from a little boy wearing it.

Would you be happy to go on a date with a man in a dinosaur costume or a Ben10 T-Shirt? Whyever not, given that little boys and grown men wearing a given item of clothing is exactly the same thing?

Ultimately, whether you'd find it appealing or acceptable on your DP is a total irrelevance. I find it very weird that women are basing what they let their kids wear on what they'd like their DH to wear. I wouldn't like DH to wear combat trousers and hoodies but that doesn't mean no child of mine should ever be allowed to wear them. It's a weird argument.

@FourPlatinumRings

If it's not OK for a grown man then surely it's not worlds away from a little boy wearing it.

Would you be happy to go on a date with a man in a dinosaur costume or a Ben10 T-Shirt? Whyever not, given that little boys and grown men wearing a given item of clothing is exactly the same thing?

Ultimately, whether you'd find it appealing or acceptable on your DP is a total irrelevance. I find it very weird that women are basing what they let their kids wear on what they'd like their DH to wear. I wouldn't like DH to wear combat trousers and hoodies but that doesn't mean no child of mine should ever be allowed to wear them. It's a weird argument.

But that isn't the same is it? Whether it's got dinosaurs on it or not thf item of clothes is still a t-shirt. A dress is a dress and there isn't dresses designed for boys or men. T shirts are designed for boys with different prints on them for men. Dresses are specifically (at this current time) designed for females. If a grown man turned up in a cutesy dinosaur t-shirt I'd think perhaps he was a bit of a kid! If a man turned up in a dress I'd think he was not heterosexual.

If a man turned up in a dress I'd think he was not heterosexual.

Does it matter? Would it concern you if people thought your son was gay? Surely the only person who should be concerning himself with how he presents himself should be your son, as an adult? And as a child, why does it matter if an adult woman would find his apparel attractive on a date?

@Savourysenorita

I do remember my a lady in our friendship group doing this at a local soft play / role play kids centre. She was all 'ooh look little Tommy. Look at these lovely princess dresses. Do you like this one?' he then responded 'yeh. Wear it?' que over zealous smiling 'of course you can Tommy!' and proceeds to get him in it. This boy in question is a big lad for his age. Tall and well built and the poor thing I was cringing for him running around in that elsa dress. My two just looked at me baffled. It was actually awkward trying to answer those questions on the walk home. Of course I answered them in a pc way 'well if he feels comfortable and that's what he wants to wear that's up to him'. But I was cringing inside. I will add he was given several looks by quite a significant amount of parents in there of bafflement. I just felt really sorry for him. This same lady also suggested on a group meet up that we bring some 'dolls and prams' for the boys to play with. My boys just aren't interested. It's like she's pushing an agenda that actually gives md quite a lot of awkward follow up question. One of mine actually said re the dress incident 'I thought he looked silly mummy' and actually embarrassingly so did I. But I couldn't agree so I had to just appease the situation and say 'well everybody likes different things. He's not harming anyone' but I did worry about confusing them.

The irony is, considering she wants to be seen to be ‘different’, she sounds like a sheep’

‘Quick follow the ‘in-crowd’ it’s fashionable to be seen as alternative- look at me and my cool parenting style. Can everyone hear me, my child is gender neutral.... alert.... I say.... I’m forcing (ahem encouraging) to be gender neutral because I want to be seen to be doing’

When we are discussing small children who might reasonably wear a dinosaur costume, I think that is different territory altogether from older children and adults.

For the latter, I think most people understand that there are cultural differences in what is considered masculine and feminine clothing and also that these can change over time. In many societies with limited ability to create complex garments, men and women's clothes are very similar, though they might be decorated differently.

To some extent differences also reflect the differences in the male and female body, it's why many women who wear trousers (which are gender neutral in most of the west) don't wear men's trousers. They don't fit right. You get into a similar problem with men who try and wear women's clothing, it usually fits poorly and may be unflattering to the male body and the clothing. It's been tailored with women's bodies in mind. As for people trying to say that this isn't so, I really hope you aren't the same people who insist it's pretty easy to tell a woman from a man because they are built differently, right down to the skeletal level.

But the question that people are uncomfortable with all round I suspect is whether a man or older boy who is wearing a dress is generally doing so just because he is really just attracted to dresses, or because he is attracted to appearing like a woman, or appearing wearing women's clothing (whether that is a dress or a something else.) And pointing to all the gender benders of the 70s and 80s, or even Kurt Cobain, is not helpful because they were all looking to dress like women, that was the whole point of gender bending. Maybe some were trying to really subvert gender, but mostly I don't really think so. Playing with gender isn't the same as wanting to be rid of it.

The question about the date is really, would you be uncomfortable if your date seemed to want to appear as a woman. Which may be why also wearing make-up that appears as the sort a woman might wear crosses the line - it seems to make it clear that it's not just about the dress but the whole package "woman".

@FourPlatinumRings

If a man turned up in a dress I'd think he was not heterosexual.

Does it matter? Would it concern you if people thought your son was gay? Surely the only person who should be concerning himself with how he presents himself should be your son, as an adult? And as a child, why does it matter if an adult woman would find his apparel attractive on a date?

Seem to me that you’re getting the wrong end of the stick here.

She’s taking about a man turning up to a date wearing a dress (lipstick and high heels too if you like) and whether it would put his date off.

Specifically, it’s interesting to hear whether those advocating boys wearing dresses at school, would be happy to date the guy described above.

I very much doubt all those that they all would!!!

@FourPlatinumRings

If a man turned up in a dress I'd think he was not heterosexual.

Does it matter? Would it concern you if people thought your son was gay? Surely the only person who should be concerning himself with how he presents himself should be your son, as an adult? And as a child, why does it matter if an adult woman would find his apparel attractive on a date?

Actually yes it would bother me if my son was inadvertently presenting himself as gay when he is not old enough to understand or defend himself on more adult concepts.

Specifically, it’s interesting to hear whether those advocating boys wearing dresses at school, would be happy to date the guy described above.

Why though? I wouldn't date a guy who turned up with tattoos, a football supporter t-shirt, tramlines in his hair, big braces on his teeth or a bow-tie.... But does this mean my son shouldn't be allowed to style himself that way if he so chooses? I don't get why, 'Ah, but would you fancy an adult who did that?!' is being used as a gotcha- it doesn't matter. I'm not going to be the one looking to date him and lord knows what the fashions will be in twenty years or whether he'll even be straight. It's bizarre, to my mind, to prevent him dressing how he likes as a child just in case he carries it on into adulthood and some prospective date doesn't fancy him for it. And, to be honest, if it were something he felt the need to do, any prospective partner would need to be OK with that anyway, so the argument is moot.

I would let a son wear whatever he wanted as long as it was weather appropriate. If he was very young, I might have to warn him that some people, especially other boys, might not be kind about him wearing a dress.

I remember my 3yo dd coming home and remarking that a boy was wearing a pink shirt or had on sparkly nail polish and the message she always got from me is that we live in a wonderful world where boys and girls can wear whatever they want. She herself had only recently adopted the sparkly tutu skirts and pink clothing style, a reaction to her first time school experience, but within a couple more years decided her own style (and that was the last time other than weddings or funerals that she wore dresses and I’ve been frank with her that it has to be dresses only because we can’t find “nice” clothes in her size that aren’t, but when she moves up to the next size range there will be swishy trousers and blouses and all sorts of options that show respect in chosen attire, but don’t require her to wear a skirt)

Actually yes it would bother me if my son was inadvertently presenting himself as gay when he is not old enough to understand or defend himself on more adult concepts.

That's a massive stereotype of the gay community. Not all gay men wear dresses, not all men who wear dresses are gay. Just because you're apparently ignorant of this doesn't mean everyone else is.

@FourPlatinumRings

Specifically, it’s interesting to hear whether those advocating boys wearing dresses at school, would be happy to date the guy described above.

Why though? I wouldn't date a guy who turned up with tattoos, a football supporter t-shirt, tramlines in his hair, big braces on his teeth or a bow-tie.... But does this mean my son shouldn't be allowed to style himself that way if he so chooses? I don't get why, 'Ah, but would you fancy an adult who did that?!' is being used as a gotcha- it doesn't matter. I'm not going to be the one looking to date him and lord knows what the fashions will be in twenty years or whether he'll even be straight. It's bizarre, to my mind, to prevent him dressing how he likes as a child just in case he carries it on into adulthood and some prospective date doesn't fancy him for it. And, to be honest, if it were something he felt the need to do, any prospective partner would need to be OK with that anyway, so the argument is moot.

I think this comes down to looking at why many women would not be happy about the man turning up in that outfit.

If it's just fashion sense, you are right, who cares.

But I think many women might suspect the guy is a creep. And they don't want their child to come off as (or actually be) a creep.

@FourPlatinumRings

Actually yes it would bother me if my son was inadvertently presenting himself as gay when he is not old enough to understand or defend himself on more adult concepts.

That's a massive stereotype of the gay community. Not all gay men wear dresses, not all men who wear dresses are gay. Just because you're apparently ignorant of this doesn't mean everyone else is.

It's not necessarily a stereotype but I would assume the MAJORITY of males wearing dresses would be assumed to be non heterosexual. Maybe a few aren't. But I don't think it's an unfair assumption to hazard a guess that a male wearing a dress could likely be non heterosexual. Like it or not.

why are you OK embarrassing your son in one but if it was your husband you would be aghast /find it funny /be embarrassed/ridicule him

Don't think I'd do/feel any of those things if I came home and found DH in a dress. Of course there are a million nuances and caveats to what that might specifically look like and I don't think I'd have blanket approval. Those men's long T-shirt's that were in fashion in recent years (maybe still are?!).... if I came home on a 30 degree day and found DH sat around in one of those and nothing else then I believe he work technically be "wearing a dress" and I wouldn't give a flying shit. They're designed for men. Chucking a loose fitting dress on on a hot day is bliss.

In the episode of the Simpsons where Homer gets fat so he can work from home, he spends most of the episode in a floral dress. And I don't believe there's any mention of whether it's gender appropriate. So there, I've degraded this entire conversation by referencing a cartoon.

@DidoLamenting

• "2bazookas Gawd, you must be young; some of us here have already lived through the time when women were often criticised for wearing trousers in public. I had open complaints from employer , other teachers, and even neighbours."

I'm 61- how old are you? I don't remember this being the case.*

Blimey I'm only 54 and was suspended and almost expelled from school for wearing trousers.

Girls weren't allowed to take woodwork or DT we HAD to do Home Economics and sewing!

This was all less than 40 years ago! (Ah bugger that sounds ages ages ago!! I really am old!)

We were not even allowed to wear trousers to the office in the early 80's.

Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean it didn't happen to others!!

We have fought so very hard to get where we are now but it's just slipping away again.

I despair for my grandchildren. :(

@FourPlatinumRings

Specifically, it’s interesting to hear whether those advocating boys wearing dresses at school, would be happy to date the guy described above.

Why though? I wouldn't date a guy who turned up with tattoos, a football supporter t-shirt, tramlines in his hair, big braces on his teeth or a bow-tie.... But does this mean my son shouldn't be allowed to style himself that way if he so chooses? I don't get why, 'Ah, but would you fancy an adult who did that?!' is being used as a gotcha- it doesn't matter. I'm not going to be the one looking to date him and lord knows what the fashions will be in twenty years or whether he'll even be straight. It's bizarre, to my mind, to prevent him dressing how he likes as a child just in case he carries it on into adulthood and some prospective date doesn't fancy him for it. And, to be honest, if it were something he felt the need to do, any prospective partner would need to be OK with that anyway, so the argument is moot.

But why is it something he ‘needs’ to do? My son has just gone in to juniors and he’s asked me if he can go to school in his PJ’s and I’ve told him ‘No you can’t’. Based on your argument, I should just say yes, because A- it would save me time and B- they are more comfortable.

Why don’t we all just wear PJ’s on a weekend though, to go shopping etc...Because we know if we do, they’ll get some almighty funny looks. Should it matter? Perhaps it shouldn’t but at his young age, I don’t want to throw my boy in to the lions den and potentially (most likely) be ridiculed (he also had SEN so I’m more protective as he can be vulnerable)

If someone is very comfortable with their boy worsening dresses to school it stands to reason that they would feel equally comfortable with a date wearing a dress too? Because why wouldn’t they? If a dress should be neutral for a boy then surely the same principle should be applied to a man wearing a dress?

@TableFlowerss very well put. Excellent point well made

@FourPlatinumRings

If it's not OK for a grown man then surely it's not worlds away from a little boy wearing it.

Would you be happy to go on a date with a man in a dinosaur costume or a Ben10 T-Shirt? Whyever not, given that little boys and grown men wearing a given item of clothing is exactly the same thing?

Ultimately, whether you'd find it appealing or acceptable on your DP is a total irrelevance. I find it very weird that women are basing what they let their kids wear on what they'd like their DH to wear. I wouldn't like DH to wear combat trousers and hoodies but that doesn't mean no child of mine should ever be allowed to wear them. It's a weird argument.

It isn't a weird argument. The opening thread was about whether one would let one's son wear a dress. If you're fine with it's a perfectly logical next question to say, OK you're fine with your son wearing a dress would you be equally happy if someone else's grown up son turned up wearing a dress for a date with you?

I'll answer since there seems to be some coyness. No I wouldn't be fine with it.