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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would you ok your son wearing a dress?

686 replies

KristinaJup · 12/12/2020 18:46

Candace Owens recently tweeted (in response to Harry Styles wearing a dress on a magazine cover) "Bring Back Manly Men".. amongst other things.

Who really cares if a guy wears tutus and glittery dresses? Prince was hot af in his heels and Makeup.

Imo I would have no problem with it at all if my son wanted to put on a skirt but the tweet gained a lot of traction and I saw quite a few memes and lots of fingers pointed at feminism for "ruining men"

If we carry on this way the next thing will be....women should not be wearing trousers! What do you think?

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Savourysenorita · 13/12/2020 15:47

@deepwatersolo

My point being that there's a difference between saying something SHOULD be accepted and the reality of whether it actually is

I know this distinction all too well, having grown up in a small town that had very tight social control. And the reality is: At the end of the day does not matter if something is accepted or not. Those people only hold as much power over you as you let them. And funny enough, five, ten or twenty years down the line, their attitudes may change, because they've seen more and more people transgress some ''sacred norm'', maybe even their kid or grandkid. I've seen it.

So how idiotic would one have to be to live one's life according to other people's nonsensical norms, norms that may be totally irrelevant even to them 5 years from now?

I agree with you. But I happen to agree with the 'norm' of boys not wearing dresses. My son has never showed any interest in wearing a dress. It doesn't mean I agree with all regimented societal rules but I do agree Ruth this particular one. I wouldn't ever comment on another child wearing one - that's up to his parents at the end of the day. But the original question was 'would you let your son wear a dress?' and my answer is no. Indoors maybe. But outside of the home - no.
Savourysenorita · 13/12/2020 15:47

With not Ruth!

merrymouse · 13/12/2020 15:48

I wonder how many women on here would be comfortable coming home to their husbands wearing their clothes. I suspect itd make most deeply uncomfortable.

I wear my husband's clothes, but he wouldn't fit into my clothes.

However, that is beside the point. It would be creepy for a man to stop his daughter wearing trousers "because I don't fancy women in trousers" and the opposite is also true.

Savourysenorita · 13/12/2020 15:51

@merrymouse

I wonder how many women on here would be comfortable coming home to their husbands wearing their clothes. I suspect itd make most deeply uncomfortable.

I wear my husband's clothes, but he wouldn't fit into my clothes.

However, that is beside the point. It would be creepy for a man to stop his daughter wearing trousers "because I don't fancy women in trousers" and the opposite is also true.

I don't think it's about 'not fancying' my dh in my clothes... Its about finding it unsettling/ "abnormal"
merrymouse · 13/12/2020 15:52

But I happen to agree with the 'norm' of boys not wearing dresses.

Why? it's not a particularly strongly held norm, it's just fashion. You might as well have a strong opinion on culottes or doublet and hose or kilts.

likeamillpond · 13/12/2020 16:01

Are mothers, and I think it's mainly mothers, steering their young sons into directions where they ask 'Can I wear a dress?
I have 4 brothers and parents who were considered fairly liberal back in the day and I can't recall a y of them ever asking if they could wear a dress.
My father wasn't a man's man, whatever that is.
They were never pressured into playing like boys.
Don't remember any friends saying their brothers wanted to wear dresses either.
It's another example of parents deciding something is in fashion and then steering their children in that direction.
A desperation to be seen as a modern parent. perhaps?

TeenyTinyDustinHoffman · 13/12/2020 16:12

@Savourysenorita

Also to the posters saying 'my son wears spibk sparkly trainers and rainbow dresses out and about and all we've received is positivity' I'm sorry to be harsh and offensive but so you really think that's what those people are saying when they're sat at home at the dinner table? British culture is very 'polite' and as such human beings are often hypocritical. They might say 'oh how original! Oh how lovely you're letting ethan EXPRESS himself!' but at home it's probably more like 'oh god John. Ethans mum is letting him wear girls clothes! I mean honestly you ought to have seen him in thar pink dress. I mean I know we're meant to be all for it nowadays but I'd NEVER let little Johnny wear stuff like that!' in afraid what you're hearing to your face (most of us know to be "pc") and what people actually think and are saying is probably very different. I feel terribly sorry for these little boys.
It's not "pc" to wait until you get home to slag people off. It's politeness. You can dismiss things as PC all you want but there is no actual reason why it is WRONG for a little boy to wear a dress. It is an issue of people not liking things they aren't used to. The person I feel sorry for in that scenario is little Johnny who if, God forbid, ever wants to wear a dress like his friend is going to be told that it's unnatural for boys to do that and that grown adults are going to talk about him behind his back.

There are people I'm sure who, if they met my girlfriend and I, would be very friendly to our faces but later go home to their partners and say "I know it's not PC to say it but it's Just. Not. Natural." I am aware of this.

TicTacTwo · 13/12/2020 16:26

*Are mothers, and I think it's mainly mothers, steering their young sons into directions where they ask 'Can I wear a dress?
I have 4 brothers and parents who were considered fairly liberal back in the day and I can't recall a y of them ever asking if they could wear a dress. +

Did they ever dress as historical figures that need a tunic eg Roman centurion and if so did they always wear trousers or shorts underneath?

Nativity plays are the only place I really see young boys in "dresses"

TeenyTinyDustinHoffman · 13/12/2020 16:26

@likeamillpond

Are mothers, and I think it's mainly mothers, steering their young sons into directions where they ask 'Can I wear a dress? I have 4 brothers and parents who were considered fairly liberal back in the day and I can't recall a y of them ever asking if they could wear a dress. My father wasn't a man's man, whatever that is. They were never pressured into playing like boys. Don't remember any friends saying their brothers wanted to wear dresses either. It's another example of parents deciding something is in fashion and then steering their children in that direction. A desperation to be seen as a modern parent. perhaps?
I think that the message of "You can wear a dress or skirt if you particularly want to and it doesn't make you abnormal or unnatural" is a pretty good one, tbh. I'd agree that a child brought up by parents with those views is more likely to ask to were a dress than the one brought up with "I like my men to be manly. Therefore a 9 year old wearing a dress is just wrong." Kids aren't stupid, they pick up on these things.

I would disagree, however, that this is because they're desperate to be seen as a modern parent, any more than someone who puts their daughter in dresses, gives her Barbie to play with and refuses to buy her a toy truck because it's a "boy's toy" is desperate to be seen as a traditional parent. In both cases, they are simply people enacting the values they hold. There are exceptions, I'm sure, but I don't think it's true that people only allow or don't allow these things because of the type of parent they want to be seen as.

TeenyTinyDustinHoffman · 13/12/2020 16:29

*ask to wear

Fishfingersandwichplease · 13/12/2020 16:40

When my dd was born, l always let her play with what she wanted and she loved cars and trains - as she got older, she turned much more feminine and thought wearing jeans, trousers or shorts was just the worst thing ever. She is naturally a very girly girl which l never was and actually l have decided to embrace that because as much as there is nothing wrong with letting boys wear dresses etc if they wish, there is also nothing wrong with letting girls be feminine or liking your man to be manly.

FourPlatinumRings · 13/12/2020 16:42

My question, for the people who don't want their little boys in dresses because they are not attracted to men in dresses, is how would you feel about a dad who didn't want his little girl to wear trousers because he only finds women in dresses sexy?

FourPlatinumRings · 13/12/2020 16:44

Or, to phrase it with a greater parallel to the way it's been phrased about little boys, if he only wanted his little girl to wear dresses and skirts because he likes his women girly/feminine?

9toenails · 13/12/2020 16:48

Savourysenorita:

Would you tell a Muslim they should feel free to eat pork if they wanted to because it's a ridiculous notion that they shouldn't?
Yes. Of course. It is, indeed, ridiculous, at least for the reason they tend to offer.

Would you tell a lady from dubai that she should feel free to wear a bikini if she's hot in summer?
Yes. Of course, anyone should be free to wear what they like.

Would you tell a jehovas witness they should feel free to celebrate christmas because their poor little children are missing out?
Yes, although that is one of the minor mistreatments JWs inflict on their poor little children.

You disagree: ' No ,' you say, ' because you respect their culture. We leave them to it and don't try to rationalise their beliefs.'

However, there is a difference between respect for other people (which connects with respect for other cultures) and respect for beliefs. It is not at all contradictory to have respect for others and their culture whilst criticising their beliefs, of course in appropriate contexts and with appropriate manner. I have lots of respect for my muslim friends and acquaintances, but very little for their religious beliefs. Likewise my christian friends and acquaintances. Many of them are fine people, but their religious beliefs are nonsense, as I will explain at appropriate moments; yes, giving reasons (is this what you take 'rationalising' to mean?).

To do otherwise to fail to criticise a false and/or harmful belief of some group or other out of a misunderstanding of what tolerance and respect demand of us is just patronising. It shows a lack of respect for someone if you can see where they are mistaken but refrain from explaining to them.

Of course I may be wrong. Perhaps it is indeed a good thing to acknowledge Christ as my saviour, to deny my children blood transfusions, or to refrain from eating pork because a certain medieval god mandated so. But if I am wrong, I want to be told so -- and I want to hear the reasons why I am wrong. ' Do-as-you-would-be-done-by ' applies.

Many people mistake tolerance and respect for other people with relativism of various kinds. Our respect for others, wholly desirable though it be, does not entail their beliefs are as respectable as ours.

As for boys wearing what they like. Sure, why not? All the reasons offered for denying them the chance seem to me bad ones (some just plain sexist, of course). My own children now grown, I refrain from telling them what to wear; grandchildren wear whatever they like when I am looking after them (which sadly has been less in recent times), given what their parents supply, for the most part. Sometimes a grandson will choose a dress; that is fine with me.

Bullied for what he wears? Tackle the bullies, not the victim.

But, yes, of course circumstances alter cases. In Dubai it would not be sensible seriously to try to persuade someone to wear a bikini. Likewise, there might be times and places where you would want to secure your child's safety by adjusting the clothes he wears. We should temper the wind to the shorn lamb as Sterne reminded us.

You might not allow your son to attend at the Den in Millwall wearing a Chelsea replica shirt; likewise, there may be cases/places/situations where you would temper the wind by explaining to a small boy why he might not want to wear his dress.

The principle stays, though: boys (all of us) should be allowed to wear dresses if they (we) want to.

DidoLamenting · 13/12/2020 16:48

@merrymouse

This thread is like a portal to a different time.

It's as though punk and goth and nose rings never happened.

That comment is completely irrelevant to what is being discussed.
Fishfingersandwichplease · 13/12/2020 16:49

I personally wouldn't say seeing my DH in a dress is the same as letting a little toddler or a younger child dress up in clothes designed for the opposite sex.

Savourysenorita · 13/12/2020 16:52

@likeamillpond

Are mothers, and I think it's mainly mothers, steering their young sons into directions where they ask 'Can I wear a dress? I have 4 brothers and parents who were considered fairly liberal back in the day and I can't recall a y of them ever asking if they could wear a dress. My father wasn't a man's man, whatever that is. They were never pressured into playing like boys. Don't remember any friends saying their brothers wanted to wear dresses either. It's another example of parents deciding something is in fashion and then steering their children in that direction. A desperation to be seen as a modern parent. perhaps?
Totally agree
TableFlowerss · 13/12/2020 19:37

@likeamillpond

Are mothers, and I think it's mainly mothers, steering their young sons into directions where they ask 'Can I wear a dress? I have 4 brothers and parents who were considered fairly liberal back in the day and I can't recall a y of them ever asking if they could wear a dress. My father wasn't a man's man, whatever that is. They were never pressured into playing like boys. Don't remember any friends saying their brothers wanted to wear dresses either. It's another example of parents deciding something is in fashion and then steering their children in that direction. A desperation to be seen as a modern parent. perhaps?
Your spot on, my thoughts too!

Some people making it about gender and perceptions of, yet the reality is, it’s starting to become ‘in fashion’ and ‘cool’ to say ‘ohhh were gender neutral, our child will decide what they want to do/wear etc... check us out, with liberal parenting choices’

If you feel like that crack on, but don’t preach to others what they should/shouldn’t do with their own kids!!!

deepwatersolo · 13/12/2020 20:24

Being gender critical and, consequently, critical of gender stereotyping, rejecting stereotyped clothing is the logical thing, this has nothing to do with ‚wanting to be viewed as xyz‘. I‘d also like to add that gendered clothing norms for kids are today way more extreme than in the 70‘s when boys and girls oftentimes wore pretty much the same type of clothes.
The one argument against some (not all) dresses for one‘s son that I can wrap my head around is that you instinctually feel the dress objectifies him somehow. But then, surely, you would not want your daughter to wear it either - unless you are socialized to accept the objectification of your daughter but not your son.

BlackWaveComing · 13/12/2020 20:47

@Savourysenorita

I wonder how many women on here would be comfortable coming home to their husbands wearing their clothes. I suspect itd make most deeply uncomfortable.
Because that's fetish territory.

Also, they wouldn't fit.

Men or boys who want to wear skirts/dresses for fashion or comfort should buy their own clothes, and have them altered to fit a male shape.

I

BlackWaveComing · 13/12/2020 20:51

People realize, don't they, that when women first started wearing bloomer-trousers, all the same objections were being raised - not natural, goes against cultural norms etc.

Thank goodness these women simply kept pushing back against sex-stereotypes, or we'd still be confined to frocks today!

There is zero natural reason why males can't choose non-pant outfits for variety, comfort or aesthetics.

Iminaglasscaseofemotion · 13/12/2020 20:56

I think no matter how far back you go in the past, there will be differences in clothing for men and women, just that trousers hadn't been invented so everyone wore "skirts".

ReeseWitherfork · 13/12/2020 21:20

@Iminaglasscaseofemotion

I think no matter how far back you go in the past, there will be differences in clothing for men and women, just that trousers hadn't been invented so everyone wore "skirts".
Somewhere yesterday I posted six images which offer a history of clothing and offers some insight into why clothing had evolved to have a gender. I think it probably backs up that no one should wear dresses really!
buckeejit · 13/12/2020 21:30

I asked ds-just turned 11 what would happen & what he'd think if a boy came to school/out/party in a dress.

He said it would be surprising & some people, not him but he's pretty sure some people, would laugh & think dresses were just for girls. He doesn't think it matters what you wear.

He obviously has been taught that this is what we believe & like most children of his age I think, broadly believe what their parents do. He knows I'm gender critical & so this issue has been thought about & discussed a bit.

I agree that some-maybe the majority might have negative reactions to something unusual, but if there are some others willing to say 'sure what about it?', that would go a long way to changing these pointless & sometimes painful social constructs.

Crystalclair · 13/12/2020 21:50

To those who would allow their son to wear a dress. Would you be attracted to or comfortable with a man you went on a date with if he turned up in a dress??