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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

West Yorkshire again

154 replies

Imnobody4 · 08/12/2020 20:06

West Yorkshire has 'country's highest number of recorded child marriages', report by Leeds honour abuse charity Karma Nirvana claimsMore than a third of alleged child marriages in the UK were reported to police in West Yorkshire, according to a local charity.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/crime/west-yorkshire-has-countrys-highest-number-recorded-child-marriages-report-leeds-honour-abuse-charity-karma-nirvana-claims-3060390

It's about time the gov took action on banning marriage under 18. This has been called for since about 2012.

OP posts:
RandomUser18282 · 09/12/2020 10:09

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

persistentwoman · 09/12/2020 10:10

There's been legislation to try to stop children being taken abroad for forced marriages for some time. I've been involved in several cases where girls confided in teachers before the summer holidays that they feared being married to older men while abroad with family members. To be fair, the police / social services were very good in putting a stop to it. But that was not in West Yorkshire where the issues for women and girls seem to be horrendous.

www.gov.uk/stop-forced-marriage

endofthelinefinally · 09/12/2020 10:13

It is men of all ages, threatening and attacking women of all ages. Female teachers in secondary schools are subjected to shocking verbal abuse and nothing is done.

Beamur · 09/12/2020 10:28

WYP come in for a lot of criticism on this Forum, more than I have seen for any other police authority.
I also live and work in West Yorkshire and would agree that there are places as a white woman I would not go alone.

RandomUser18282 · 09/12/2020 10:32

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Beamur · 09/12/2020 10:42

I'm sure there are complex reasons so I don't want to generalise. But in the places I know there is quite effective segregation, people of the same culture tend to live close to each other, which makes sense, there are shops and businesses that come along to meet local requirements. Kids may go to local schools, but it is discouraged (in my experience) for kids (especially girls) to mix socially outside of school.
So you end up with neighbourhoods which effectively bring with them a lot of the culture from another place.
I know quite a few professional people through work, etc, and myself and female colleagues have had incidents such as men refusing to shake hands, preferring a male colleague and such like. Mostly it's quite subtle, but illuminating of attitude.
I don't get the impression of being held in much respect shall we say.

TheQueef · 09/12/2020 10:44

Same as SYP Beamur
I'm told my actual lived experience is wrong.
I know what I see and report what I can but there are a few areas I absolutely wouldn't risk going.

AcornAutumn · 09/12/2020 10:48

someone here said it needed to be addressed in 2012

AFAIC it needed to be addressed when I was at school in the 80s and 90s and the 16+ would suddenly vanish, only to then be sighted in the supermarket with a ring on their finger and we were told they weren't returning to school. This is in London.

even then I remember my parents ranting about how terrible it was and how something needed to be done.

RoyalCorgi · 09/12/2020 10:49

The issue of banning under-18 marriages is a difficult one - my understanding is that there are women in this country from Muslim backgrounds who have undergone a traditional Islamic ceremony but not a civil ceremony, meaning their marriage is not recognised in law. So banning marriage for under-18s wouldn't necessarily be helpful.

There is also the difficult question of having different ages of consent for sex (currently 16) and marriage.

AcornAutumn · 09/12/2020 10:50

@RoyalCorgi

The issue of banning under-18 marriages is a difficult one - my understanding is that there are women in this country from Muslim backgrounds who have undergone a traditional Islamic ceremony but not a civil ceremony, meaning their marriage is not recognised in law. So banning marriage for under-18s wouldn't necessarily be helpful.

There is also the difficult question of having different ages of consent for sex (currently 16) and marriage.

I'm going to go a step further and say I think a marriage should be legally performed in this country to be recognised in this country. I don't care who wants to get married in the Caribbean.

Can you get a loan of any kind under 18?

TirisfalPumpkin · 09/12/2020 10:52

Age of consent is a good point. It seems we should have a consistent age of majority for everything, not this ‘you can have sex but can’t have a glass of wine, get a tattoo or marry without parental permission’ business.

Local feminists do care about these issues, but we get attacked for ‘white feminism’ every time it’s suggested a 16 year old being sent to marry her cousin isn’t in her best interest.

endofthelinefinally · 09/12/2020 11:13

@endofthelinefinally

You can make as many laws as you like. If people don't recognise or adhere to the law and the police don't uphold the law, there isn't much point.
I will just post this again. No amount of discussion will change anything.
RandomUser18282 · 09/12/2020 11:18

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

CaraDuneRedux · 09/12/2020 11:19

Age of consent laws should be built round several considerations: safeguarding - preventing adults sexually abusing children; protecting children from child-on-child sexual abuse (which does happen); and avoiding criminalising consensual sexual behaviour between older teens.

I'm not sure how you'd do the details, but something like an acceptance in law (which we already have I believe) that children under 13 cannot consent to sex, plus an absolute ban in people over 18 having sex with those under the age of consent (and it should be "strict liability" is "she told me she was older" should not be a defence), plus a Romeo and Juliet clause meaning the older partner (if under 18) isn't criminalised if the age gap is less than 2 years.

I think a sensible set of laws could be built round this.

But marriage is different. A consensual shag between randy 15 year olds as a one off is entirely different from tying yourself into a legal contract which can take up to 5 years to extricate yourself from.

endofthelinefinally · 09/12/2020 11:23

The Rotherham grooming scandal took so long to get any action from the police was in part due to the fact that the police themselves decided that the vulnerable young girls being exploited were actually prostitutes and willing participants. The school nurse, social worker and local MP were all silenced by cries of racism.

CaraDuneRedux · 09/12/2020 11:25

endofthelinefinally

You can make as many laws as you like.
If people don't recognise or adhere to the law and the police don't uphold the law, there isn't much point.

I will just post this again.
No amount of discussion will change anything

And I will repeat again: there is a huge difference between saying there are cultural groups where tackling adult male on teen female sex abuse is very difficult, and saying because it's difficult we might as well decriminalise it/culturally sanction it via adopting bad laws.

Passing laws has a normative as well as a practical function - it's a way of society saying "we don't think this practise is ok."

After all, pretty much every society in the world has laws against murder. Doesn't stop murder happening. But that would be a pretty rubbish argument for decriminalizing murder.

endofthelinefinally · 09/12/2020 11:30

We do have laws already but the police don't enforce them and the perpetrators don't recognise that UK law applies to them. This needs to change urgently. How that will happen I don't know.

I agree that some changes/improvements to the law would be a good thing, but you have to be prepared to enforce it and that isn't happening any time soon.

Packingsoapandwater · 09/12/2020 11:40

"You don't throw up your hands and effectively say "well bad things are going to happen anyway, they've always happened, so hey, let's just decriminalize those bad things, problem swept under carpet, phew."

Where on earth did I say that? Confused

All I am saying is that changing the age of consent for marriage in Britain won't necessarily fix the problem. Even community outreach won't necessarily fix the problem.

There was a documentary shown a few years ago, made by a journalist who visited families with children with congenital health problems in these communities, and those parents and grandparents categorically refused to believe cousin marriage was the problem, saying things like "we are cousins and our children were fine." One family believed it was British doctors causing the illnesses.

I have an old college friend, lovely chap. He's educated, he's got a professional job, born and brought up in Britain. He married his cousin in an arranged marriage. When I asked him whether or not he was concerned that his children or grandchildren may have problems, his response was "well, what can I do?" He couldn't go against his family's wishes; it would have been anathema for him to do so.

Look at the drivers. A lot of cousin and child marriage is to do with keeping wealth within families, ensuring a daughter-in-law is in a safe environment with a familial connection to her mother-in-law, and immigration rights.

Changing the age of marriage consent does not address any of those drivers, and those drivers are more powerful for families than an age of consent law.

Imnobody4 · 09/12/2020 11:42

Laws help the victims to speak out and activists to organise on their behalf. It drags these practices into the light of day and gives public condemnation teeth. It enables schools to educate.
I worked in a multi cultural area in the 70s and had contact with schools, social workers etc but never heard of FGM. It was a secret not talked about due to 'respect for cultural practices'. With marriage there is the problem of distinguishing arranged marriage and forced marriage. A clear law would help with blurred lines.

OP posts:
endofthelinefinally · 09/12/2020 11:58

Packingsoapandwater

I linked to the documentary on this thread. It was Dispatches/Channel 4.

endofthelinefinally · 09/12/2020 12:00

@Imnobody4

Laws help the victims to speak out and activists to organise on their behalf. It drags these practices into the light of day and gives public condemnation teeth. It enables schools to educate. I worked in a multi cultural area in the 70s and had contact with schools, social workers etc but never heard of FGM. It was a secret not talked about due to 'respect for cultural practices'. With marriage there is the problem of distinguishing arranged marriage and forced marriage. A clear law would help with blurred lines.
You would think so. But really, it isn't that simple because of accusations of intolerance and racism.
andyoldlabour · 09/12/2020 12:34

Flaxmeadow

There have been many threads about grooming gangs in the UK. There was a petition which I think was featured on this board. My DW and I both signed it. Get as many people to sign it, because it needs around 80,000 more signatures for it to be debated in parliament.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/327566?reveal_response=yes

andyoldlabour · 09/12/2020 12:38

We shouldn't forget that Sarah Champion lost her shadow cabinet role for speaking out about the grooming gangs in Rotherham, and Sajid Javid was accused of being racist when he made comments about the issue, despite the fact that he is from an Asian background.

endofthelinefinally · 09/12/2020 12:38

Signed. Hope it doesn't get deleted.

TheQueef · 09/12/2020 12:55

Sarah Champion only said a fraction of the truth, same as Anne Cryer(?) If they had told the whole truth they'd likely be arrested.
It's happening all over again with the Eastern European migrants but community cohesion.

Girls and Women are merely property kuffar don't matter.

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