Impact of 2-child benefit cap on abortion decisions

[niceberg]

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/03/two-child-limit-on-benefits-a-key-factor-in-many-abortion-decisions-says-charity

This was inevitable and as such must have been seen as an acceptable outcome by the government when it was introduced.

I now have 2 children, me and DH both work and aren’t entitled to any tax credits. I don’t resent the fact that other families on lower incomes are entitled to some extra money to ensure they can make ends meet and that their children don’t suffer. If our income dropped to the same level then we would be entitled to the same support.

@PotholeParadies come
And live near me then , when my dc were at school practically all families claiming complete benefits had 4 or more children
The ones on tax credit often 2/3
Not many at my dc school who prib didn't claim a thing tbh

@timeforanewstart

The cap is fair it wasn't imposed on existing children , what should be campaigned for is better support for non insurable illnesses etc so those that have had more than 2 children get help I know if several large families where neither parent has worked for years

Did a magic wand get waved that would free all women from abusive relationships and glue rapist men's cocks in their pants?

Well that escalated quickly!

I think covid comes into it because we have made all kinds of financial support temporarily available that otherwise wouldn't be, to protect people who suddenly are worse off than they were.

People might have planned a 3rd baby thinking it would be fine (or be pregnant after contraception failure), then covid happened and it suddenly wasn't fine.

I think lifting the cap temporarily would be a humane response.

@PotholeParadies there is a rape clause in it , and also abusive men how do you not know this cap hasn't encouraged less children to be born in to an abusive home
More education and help to get people out of abusive relationships is better surely , rather than just giving money and people staying

@niceberg i don't think you could lift it temporarily it would be an administrative nightmare
Extra money for universal credit has been given and apart from its tome to pay it is actually fairer than working tax as no overpayments
The most that could be offered would be a one off payment

The prime example of feckless dad voted for this cap. Boris Johnson.

@niceberg I have lost my income thankfully we only have 2 children to support as I considered this kind of scenario years ago when sticking with 2 , job losses have always happened.
Where would this money come from , the amount paid out in furlough and vaccinations etc
The only thing that should get re looked at his housing benefit as sometimes the cap on this means people can't actually get a suitable area , someone in a cheap area will get all rent paid and same benefits as someone else who lives in an area where rents are high and then has to use benefits to top up the rent

Child benefit isn’t capped at 2 children
Tax credits are now for children born after a certain date.
We have a large family. If you plan to have less and accidentally get pregnant there are other options children don’t have to cost a fortune it just depends on the lifestyle you want I suppose but if you’re happy to reuse things clothing and equipment they really don’t have to cost a lot to raise

Given there is a ‘rape clause’ should there also be a clause where contraceptive failure can be proven? For instance you became pregnant despite having an implant inserted? I suppose it would be impossible to deal with claims of the pill or condoms not working but would work for women who become pregnant with the coil/implant/injection

@nosswith but he pays for his children , I don't think his partners will be claiming benefits

[quote timeforanewstart]@PotholeParadies there is a rape clause in it , and also abusive men how do you not know this cap hasn't encouraged less children to be born in to an abusive home
More education and help to get people out of abusive relationships is better surely , rather than just giving money and people staying[/quote]
I made quite a long post about this. Please read it then come back to me

More education and help to get people out of abusive relationships is better surely , rather than just giving money and people staying

Why not both? Why not a properly funded VAWG sector, free education, proper social housing and a welfare state that ensures a woman who needs to leave will be able to feed her children and access housing when she does?

timeforanewstart interesting point about housing benefit.

I don't claim to know how much this would cost but my guess is a drop in the ocean compared to furlough, drop in business rates etc.

Logistics obviously difficult, but then most of the financial support put in place presumably has not been easy.

@fishFingerketchup yes thats a good point. I know a large family on a small income they buy second hand , sell on sites as they look after their stuff , forgo foreign holidays etc etc
Are fsm limited to just 2 children do you know ?

No I think fsm are for as many children as are eligible within a family

If a child is conceived without consent then they are exempt from the 2 child rule, there are several exemptions to the rule

@jj1968 we have free education ?
Not uni but that is a choice and there are loans etc to help -
We have quite a generous welfare system compared to many countries and you often find its people in work with mortgages etc that are struggling
More social housing would be helpful as means people wouldn't have to top up rent
But prior to covid these caps had meant more people were working even if part time , this is surely a good thing
Yes maybe temp help for people leaving an abusive situation until back on feet, but cb isnn't capped , fsm I don't believe are capped

@mumsyandtiredzz

Given there is a ‘rape clause’ should there also be a clause where contraceptive failure can be proven? For instance you became pregnant despite having an implant inserted? I suppose it would be impossible to deal with claims of the pill or condoms not working but would work for women who become pregnant with the coil/implant/injection

Morally, there should. Especially as this was brought in by a party associated with attempting to restrict termination access. I think I remember Nadine Dorries really annoying me on this issue.

Or, we could just get rid of the cap and trust that few women on benefits, like all other women, want to have child after child for the sake of it.

Pushing families into poverty always costs society more in the end.

[quote timeforanewstart]@fishFingerketchup yes thats a good point. I know a large family on a small income they buy second hand , sell on sites as they look after their stuff , forgo foreign holidays etc etc
Are fsm limited to just 2 children do you know ? [/quote]
Do you have any idea what rents are like in some parts of the country. The benefit cap forced (mostly) women and their kids to be uprooted from their schools and communities to be housed in different cities in some cases, miles away from family, friends and support networks. It has been a horrifying policy that was purely ideological and probably cost more to implement than it saved.

[quote timeforanewstart]@jj1968 we have free education ?
Not uni but that is a choice and there are loans etc to help -
We have quite a generous welfare system compared to many countries and you often find its people in work with mortgages etc that are struggling
More social housing would be helpful as means people wouldn't have to top up rent
But prior to covid these caps had meant more people were working even if part time , this is surely a good thing
Yes maybe temp help for people leaving an abusive situation until back on feet, but cb isnn't capped , fsm I don't believe are capped [/quote]
No we don't have free education, Yoy try getting on a course for anything that isn't the most very basic qualification through the Jobcentre, and you're lucky to get that. You're more likely to be bullied into some kind of unpaid work experience stacking shelves in Asda.

And we have one of the least generous welfare systems in Europe.

Child benefit for subsequent children is 13.70 a week. FSM? One meal a day during term-time.

That is not adequate for children! Why should children suffer like that?

I totally agree with the cap. No one has to have more than 2 children. The planet is overpopulated and people should not be having so many. It is so common now to have 3 (or even more).

Also when people have children do they never give it any thought? Of course you could lose your job, you could become ill etc. Also so many marriages end in divorce, often mainly due to having children. If you stick to 2 it is easy to cope if disaster strikes.

Everyone should know about the cap so make bloody sure you don't have a third child if you can't afford it. It's pathetic that there are so many "accidents"

@jj1968 we have free education upto 18 and you can get on college courses for free if you only have education up to a certain level

@PotholeParadies then people really need to think and stick at 2
Its not good to have people depending on state either as cycle often continues