Susie Green and Keira Bell on Newsnight

[OldeMagick]

It's about halfway in

Emily Maitlis not giving an inch

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000pyyc/newsnight-01122020

[quote Biscuitsanddoombar]good luck getting any of this Board to challenge her

mermaidsuk.org.uk/staff-and-trustees/[/quote]
I did a massive eye-roll at all those pronouns.

The 1% detransition figure is mendacious. What I suspect it is supposed to represent is the number of people who have a full medical transition of whom very few desist. For various reasons. For the UK you'll be looking at a population of maybe 5000 with 50 desisters.

However, there are supposed to be several hundred thousand trans people in the UK. We are continually reminded that if someone says they're trans then, no question, they are trans. What percentage of these people desist? It'll be substantially more than 1%.

This business of using one sub-group to generate a number which is then applied to a different sub-group or the whole population never ceases to annoy me.

Puberty is not a disease that needs a cure.

And Mermaids themselves have said there's no such thing as being born in the wrong body. So there's no such things as going through wrong puberty. Yet kids are going to kill themselves if they have to go through the "torture" of the wrong puberty?

They'll write a script that they actually stick to one of these days. So many plot holes in their current one.

@nauticant

The 1% detransition figure is mendacious. What I suspect it is supposed to represent is the number of people who have a full medical transition of whom very few desist. For various reasons. For the UK you'll be looking at a population of maybe 5000 with 50 desisters.

However, there are supposed to be several hundred thousand trans people in the UK. We are continually reminded that if someone says they're trans then, no question, they are trans. What percentage of these people desist? It'll be substantially more than 1%.

This business of using one sub-group to generate a number which is then applied to a different sub-group or the whole population never ceases to annoy me.

fastwigglylines gave a good explanation of the 1% detransitioner rate on another thread, here: Tavistoc Clinic www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4095122-Tavistoc-Clinic#102270286

This twitter person seems to think puberty should be fought off (like an attacking monster)? WTAF

And Professor Stephen Whittle demonstrates how despite being an supposed legal/transgender expert, Whittle doesn’t know Whittle’s arse from Whittle’s elbow on this:

(Archive link to Whittle’s tweet):

archive.md/0Nvma

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Whittle

Here’s Mermaids Q&A on what will happen to kids on the GIDS wait list or treatment pathway (archived link):

archive.md/gasVj

I was talking to a friend last night who is a (lovely, kind, well meaning) teacher, she was worried about a female pupil who is identifying as a boy, along with several others. She thought this pupil would be very upset at the judgement.
I think the ethos in schools on this is part of the problem . If you are completely affirmed in this mid-teen dysphoria by everyone at school, if your teachers , who you trust, now call you a boy , where is there to go when you grow up a bit and start to regret that identity? Not surprising at all that girls tend to suddenly want to be boys as puberty starts, or half way through. Being a teenage girl is really hard, even more difficult now with porn everywhere.
There are an awful lot of careers it seems propped up by this, from Stonewall to Mermaids to various medical staff. It isn’t in the interests of any of these people for there to be no trans children.

Who is going to guide the schools, clubs etc as to how they handle the kids they have been counselling thus far?

I'm very pleased to hear Keira stressing the need for much more support for mental health issues.

Having had to argue the toss with someone on a thread last night who seemed to think lesbians shouldn't use the word lesbian because it excludes women who aren't lesbians I can't imagine the level of lesbophobia these young girls must be subjected to.

No wonder they're opting out.

They had Deb Cohen (from Newsnight) to explain what it was all about and it was surprising to hear her give a rather watered-down acount of the case. It felt like she was minimising the strength of the criticisms in the judgement and she seemed to skim very quickly over the reason for the criticisms, that is the nature of the consequences for children and young people.

DC has done some excellent reporting on this issue for Newsnight. What a shame, having to water down her own insights to appease the in-house audience of Woman's Hour

Here’s Mermaids Q&A on what will happen to kids on the GIDS wait list or treatment pathway (archived link)

They're actually seeking some important clarifications - it will be interesting to see what the answers are.

There are an awful lot of careers it seems propped up by this, from Stonewall to Mermaids to various medical staff. It isn’t in the interests of any of these people for there to be no trans children

Will there be an announcement about whats going to happen now. I mean is there any point in pushing kids down what is now a dead end...

What will they do with their time.

Sorry not RTFT but if there was a “wealth of international evidence” as stated by SG then why wasn’t it presented? If they have all the evidence to show how amazing this treatment is why didn’t they take it to court?

Not giving a child puberty blockers is not forcing them to go through puberty.

Puberty is what happens in a developing body - if you really want to interfere with a normal, natural (even if sometimes challenging) (and arguably necessary) bodily process, you need to have a very good reason backed up with substantial evidence that it will work and not cause more harm.

Agree that Susie Green does not at all come across as responsible in terms of being someone supposedly providing support to children. Her case is emotive, anecdotal and relies on highly questionable 'statistics' and vague references to other countries' practise. Just because it's legal to perform sex reassignment surgery on a 16 year old in Thailand doesn't mean it's right or in the best interests of the young person.

@Sexnotgender

Sorry not RTFT but if there was a “wealth of international evidence” as stated by SG then why wasn’t it presented? If they have all the evidence to show how amazing this treatment is why didn’t they take it to court?

Listening to Green, I can see why the court dismissed Mermaids.

There isn't any evidence in their favour. If there was, the high court would have been the very best place to present it, to prove doubters wrong.

Not stopping TRAs posting their blog links all over Twitter trying to prove the judges wrong though, bless 'em. Their ship is sinking.

Also not seeing anything much on Green's Twitter - have there been deletions?

SRS under the age of 18 isn't legal in Thailand now.

GIRES statement is similar bluster to Green, but somehow denies that ‘transgender’ children are vulnerable, so undermines Green’s suicide mongering

archive.md/AHsV7

Whilst we would say that being trans, in a systemically transphobic society creates places where you could be vulnerable to damaging discourse, a trans child is not inherently vulnerable. To the contrary, most trans children we know are incredibly strong, resilient, intelligent and understanding. What they need is timely, robust, and less onerous access to healthcare, not to be patronised and stonewalled by judges who believe they know better than medical doctors and clinicians.

I wonder if they realise that encouraging GIDS to take this to the Supreme Court could well result in the ruling extending beyond the current England and Wales jurisdiction? Because that’s a double or quits gamble that I don’t think most trans orgs will want to take.

The shrill twittering is on the Mermaids account, rather than the SG one.

Yesterday’s archive archive.md/y3lMI

One from just now: archive.md/T2rVY

Oh God, one of those tweets.

"To those still awake, remember: no court, no politician, no actress, no author, actor or writer, no judge or troll or neighbour or friend. No family member or boss or colleague or stranger can make you who you're not. Open or secret (for now) you're you."

Yeah, you should have been upfront that people can't make you something you're not right from the start. Muppets.

They’ve never heard of influencers, heros or role models then?

@yourhairiswinterfire

Oh God, one of those tweets.

"To those still awake, remember: no court, no politician, no actress, no author, actor or writer, no judge or troll or neighbour or friend. No family member or boss or colleague or stranger can make you who you're not. Open or secret (for now) you're you."

Yeah, you should have been upfront that people can't make you something you're not right from the start. Muppets.

I did notice that they retweeted Emma Watson’s tweet along with that gem. Trying to drag as many people down as possible with them...

There are so many interesting aspects to this. One is that the concept of "trans kids" is a vital prop for the gender identity ideology. The purpose is to make a large part of the groups falling under the trans umbrella to fade into the background because "look! it's kids! no one would oppose kids being happy!"

But this contains a real weakness. The moment the public perceive "trans kids" as "life-changing medical experimentation on children" support can rapidly turn to hostility against groups like Mermaids.

@yourhairiswinterfire

Oh God, one of those tweets.

"To those still awake, remember: no court, no politician, no actress, no author, actor or writer, no judge or troll or neighbour or friend. No family member or boss or colleague or stranger can make you who you're not. Open or secret (for now) you're you."

Yeah, you should have been upfront that people can't make you something you're not right from the start. Muppets.

I think this was probably written by our Suz when pacing her kitchen and drinking wine from a box, after Newsnight hung up.

Some of these people are proper bonkers. They write so many words, but completely miss the point of the judges’ rulings.

Here’s a US based kiddie gender quack: archive.md/H6ctg

And this one self describes as a ‘transfeminine bioethicist’ archive.md/2Nbqp

Mad as a box of frogs.

Is pulling Watson into this again an example of forced-teaming?

I did notice that they retweeted Emma Watson’s tweet along with that gem. Trying to drag as many people down as possible with them

It does seem like that doesn't it.

No sense if responsibility at all. If there was evidence she should have submitted it. Unless of course she wanted the "out"..