Susie Green and Keira Bell on Newsnight

[OldeMagick]

It's about halfway in

Emily Maitlis not giving an inch

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000pyyc/newsnight-01122020

My 18 year old DD didn't even like dolls and dresses, hated frills, dislikef pink. She is heterosexual and gender 'conforming" likes makeup and buying clothes now. And her brother who is also gender "conforming "and heterosexual loved dressing up and soft toys and playing house and sparkly unicorns when he was five.
It is all such nonsense to demarcate the interests of five year olds.

I know many FTM transitioners and those who have taken T have all ended up with a very different look: bald head, lots of facial hair, big belly, kind of a "reddish" tint (I asked and apparently T often causes blood pressure issues).

Yes, they start off well, looking fresh-faced and boyish, and then it all goes wrong later. Did anyone else read the link about the Korean eunuchs? It seems that testosterone may actually shorten life, which is why men generally don't live as long as women. I wonder if they warn FTM transitioners about that.

@OldCrone

Teenage girls have no idea what being an adult man is like, they are fleeing from being adult women, into an idealised fantasy of masculinity.

And it's similar for boys/men who think they want to be women. Most of them seem to think being a woman is all about being decorative. They have no idea what being a woman is really like, just a fantasy of being a woman seen from the perspective of a male.

This, a thousand times. The young (autistic) transman I know has spent his entire adolescence at an all-girls school. He did not meet male friends via hobbies as a teen, either. His first exposure to being masculine-identified among male peers will be at university, far from home.

It doesn't strike me as a great set up, frankly.

Have there been more clusters at all girls schools?

I worked at a private, all-girls school for a short time once. It was back in the days before the rapid increase in children identifying as trans.

There was a severe issue with anorexia among the year 11s that the school was trying to deal with. I am not sure whether eating disorders are typically found in girls' schools, but it wasn't a widespread problem among the girls at my mixed-sex comprehensive in the '90s (individual girls battled it, I know) nor did I come across large outbreaks of anorexia at another comprehensive I worked in.

I mention this only because I know transitioning has been linked to eating disorders.

But even if they were gender non-conforming and it wasn't a phase, why should that make us query whether they are, in fact, the opposite sex?

Watching the Jazz Jennings video, it was all focussed on whether it was a phase that she was "girly" or not. It seems to be that it it is not a phase, then you are transgender with transgender meaning that you were born in the wrong body. I am not of the view that we should abolish gender, but we do need it to be unremarkable for people to be gender non-conforming and for society to be accepting even when it is "extreme" or longlasting

If transgender simply meant extremely and persistently gender non-conforming, but said nothing about sex, it would be a useful term. If society was accepting of being transgender in these terms (as a descriptive term like "sporty" or "blonde", rather than an identity), it would be something you could happily be without any need to ask anything of anyone else or to want to make physical changes to sex characteristics. It would still make sense that some people who were transgender in these terms might nonetheless feel more comfortable asking the world to regard them as the opposite sex, and it would be great if society could accommodate that socially, but it would be with full understanding on all sides that this does not change their sex.

Transsexualism could then be the term for people who wish to change their primary sex characteristics because they believe that they are the wrong sex, and we would have some people who are both transsexual and transgender. This last group are the group that the GRA was created to serve.

@Nettleskeins

My 18 year old DD didn't even like dolls and dresses, hated frills, dislikef pink. She is heterosexual and gender 'conforming" likes makeup and buying clothes now. And her brother who is also gender "conforming "and heterosexual loved dressing up and soft toys and playing house and sparkly unicorns when he was five. It is all such nonsense to demarcate the interests of five year olds.

Sorry, meant to quote this.

@EdgeOfACoin

I worked at a private, all-girls school for a short time once. It was back in the days before the rapid increase in children identifying as trans.

There was a severe issue with anorexia among the year 11s that the school was trying to deal with. I am not sure whether eating disorders are typically found in girls' schools, but it wasn't a widespread problem among the girls at my mixed-sex comprehensive in the '90s (individual girls battled it, I know) nor did I come across large outbreaks of anorexia at another comprehensive I worked in.

I mention this only because I know transitioning has been linked to eating disorders.

There definitely appears to be a similar “social contagion” aspect to both eating disorders and a desire to transition in teenage girls. How else can cases (anecdotal, I accept) of multiple girls within a peer group suddenly declaring themselves trans/non-binary be explained?

DD, as a young teenager just wanted to wear what her friends wore. Whatever your friends do, there you follow.
She used to talk a lot about "the group", she isn't in my group so I can't be friends with her.

It isn't to much of a stretch to see if you aren't socially at ease you will do your best to fit in with whatever group makes you feel good about yourself.
Like cults it doesn't start with straight-out indoctrination it just starts with "welcome".

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/k5yv42/feeling_quite_hopeless_and_very_isolated/

Example here of a "mtf" who clearly has a lot of other issues that need addressing, and has been brainwashed by "allies" on social media into thinking that everyone wants them dead. They've started to transition but still can't seem to find friends with whom to live the life they'd envisaged. The fact that the promised life has failed to materialise is put down to transphobia.

I was listening to the Savage Minds podcast with Marcus Evans this morning, and he was talking about how psychiatry always wants these "magic bullets", these quick simple solutions, and how tempting it is to think that transition is the answer to all these complex problems that people have.

I think, as Keira said, better and accessible mental health care is needed. Oh, and for people to get the fuck off social media for a while.

'I can't do the girl stuff I have been wanting to do for many years'

What is this 'girl stuff'?! Other than menstruating, gestation and so on? I mean ffs, if any man or boy out there wants to wear a certain item of clothing, do go the fuck ahead, nobody really cares! Honestly! Paint your nails, go wild!

@PaleBlueMoonlight

But even if they were gender non-conforming and it wasn't a phase, why should that make us query whether they are, in fact, the opposite sex?

Watching the Jazz Jennings video, it was all focussed on whether it was a phase that she was "girly" or not. It seems to be that it it is not a phase, then you are transgender with transgender meaning that you were born in the wrong body. I am not of the view that we should abolish gender, but we do need it to be unremarkable for people to be gender non-conforming and for society to be accepting even when it is "extreme" or longlasting

If transgender simply meant extremely and persistently gender non-conforming, but said nothing about sex, it would be a useful term. If society was accepting of being transgender in these terms (as a descriptive term like "sporty" or "blonde", rather than an identity), it would be something you could happily be without any need to ask anything of anyone else or to want to make physical changes to sex characteristics. It would still make sense that some people who were transgender in these terms might nonetheless feel more comfortable asking the world to regard them as the opposite sex, and it would be great if society could accommodate that socially, but it would be with full understanding on all sides that this does not change their sex.

Transsexualism could then be the term for people who wish to change their primary sex characteristics because they believe that they are the wrong sex, and we would have some people who are both transsexual and transgender. This last group are the group that the GRA was created to serve.

I have a DS who was like Jazz when he was very little, right down to the same Disney dresses and lots of dolls. In my opinion it's not a phase as such but a personality that is finding ways to express itself. Very young children are limited in how they can express themselves but as they get older it evolves.

DS left behind Disney dress up and Barbies when he was around 8 entirely of his own accord but the personality and interests that drove him to enjoy those toys remain.

He's become very involved in arts and drama, loves fashion and is forever cutting up customising his clothes to get the exact look he wants. He's in his mid teens now and I'm fully expecting him to end up studying art or design of some kind.

What a disaster if I'd decided age 4 that all the above meant he needed medical help.

I have a DS who was like Jazz when he was very little, right down to the same Disney dresses and lots of dolls. In my opinion it's not a phase as such but a personality that is finding ways to express itself. Very young children are limited in how they can express themselves but as they get older it evolves.

DS left behind Disney dress up and Barbies when he was around 8 entirely of his own accord but the personality and interests that drove him to enjoy those toys remain.*

This is beautifully expressed, thank you, and much more nuanced than what I wrote. No-one's personality or the way they express themselves is static or independent of their age or the world around them and everyone grows up (especially if allowed to go through puberty...)

Here’s to a world where little boys and little girls are free to play with whatever toys capture their interests and feed their imaginations and wear whatever clothes fulfil their needs for comfort and/or creativity, whether those interests and comforts last for just a few weeks or a whole lifetime
🍻

(Although I am glad my eldest no longer wears his Buzz Lightyear ‘space wings‘ 24/7 😂)

@ArabellaScott

'I can't do the girl stuff I have been wanting to do for many years'

What is this 'girl stuff'?! Other than menstruating, gestation and so on? I mean ffs, if any man or boy out there wants to wear a certain item of clothing, do go the fuck ahead, nobody really cares! Honestly! Paint your nails, go wild!

I think this is why some people end up so dissatisfied and unsure where they fit it. I’m guessing this person is in their twenties? When I was that age I was out drinking in mixed company, playing on my PlayStation, watching kid’s cartoons, reading (books and comics), watching the soaps and comedy shows, going to see bands... I wore dresses and make up but didn’t have sleep overs whilst I was doing this, mainly listening to music on my own. So what are these girly things? Nothing I did was particularly unusual for young women and the nail painting and hair styling was all done alone as part of getting ready. Even when I lived with other women we dressed and made up in our rooms alone.

What idea of “girly” is being sold that these young transwomen believe they can be doing with young women? Have things changed so much now?

That reddit post sounds very much like believing in a fantasy and being hurt when faced with reality. How is that healthy for anyone?

@PaleBlueMoonlight

But even if they were gender non-conforming and it wasn't a phase, why should that make us query whether they are, in fact, the opposite sex?

Watching the Jazz Jennings video, it was all focussed on whether it was a phase that she was "girly" or not. It seems to be that it it is not a phase, then you are transgender with transgender meaning that you were born in the wrong body. I am not of the view that we should abolish gender, but we do need it to be unremarkable for people to be gender non-conforming and for society to be accepting even when it is "extreme" or longlasting

If transgender simply meant extremely and persistently gender non-conforming, but said nothing about sex, it would be a useful term. If society was accepting of being transgender in these terms (as a descriptive term like "sporty" or "blonde", rather than an identity), it would be something you could happily be without any need to ask anything of anyone else or to want to make physical changes to sex characteristics. It would still make sense that some people who were transgender in these terms might nonetheless feel more comfortable asking the world to regard them as the opposite sex, and it would be great if society could accommodate that socially, but it would be with full understanding on all sides that this does not change their sex.

Transsexualism could then be the term for people who wish to change their primary sex characteristics because they believe that they are the wrong sex, and we would have some people who are both transsexual and transgender. This last group are the group that the GRA was created to serve.

Yes, I agree with this. It is the insistence that someone with gender issues is actually the opposite sex that is the problem.

What idea of “girly” is being sold that these young transwomen believe they can be doing with young women? Have things changed so much now?

I think some of it is soft porn fantasy (sexy pillow fights) crossed with rom com nonsense. I'm not sure what sort of TV shows this generation are into but the ones I watched in my youth, Friends, Ally McBeal, SATC didn't resemble my life one iota.

None of my friends in my twenties did 'girly" things. By then we socialised in mixed sex groups or if we met with old friends (girls as we went to single sex school) we gossiped talked about work and travel and other acquaintances. We discussed relationships if they were problematic. But surely men do these things too??
I remember once having a new friend who wanted to go facecream shopping with me and thinking eowww?? That's what young teens do, go shopping for makeup.

Maybe that is the problem - it is a fantasy about being a girl not a "woman". It is a search for innocence and carefree version of adulthood with no burdens.

'I can't do the girl stuff I have been wanting to do for many years'

Just thinking back to all the girl stuff I did when I was young: loads of bike rides, building dens, playing with cap guns, making things in my father’s workshop (shed), reading adventure books, climbing trees, painting, meccano.... in other words, typical girly stuff.

Yes, sleepovers, glitter and trying out clothes, getting into "scrapes",dancing in the kitchen. All good in itself but it isn't what we women spend most of our time doing is it??? I'm sure ftm have similar fantasies about men bonding in entirely different ways to women but possibly they do much the same in RL as women, gossip about their mates, share problems, tell jokes and discuss what happened last weekend and their interests architecture books sport music, state of the nation etc.
Or do I have very non gender conforming friends and family????

Singing
Dancing
Dressing up in glam outfits
Adjusting his hair

Is my son not allowed to show an interest in these things AND be a man?

@OvaHere

We need to move away from this notion of 'trans kids'. It's an invented term - clever PR. I've fallen into the trap of using it before because it's easy shorthand.

Reading yesterdays judgement it's clear there is no such concrete thing. What we have is a group of children who for a wide variety of complex reasons are either distressed or GNC and end up at the Tavistock.

Labelling them from the outset with a group identity before exploration has taken place is part of the problem. We know that left to go through a natural puberty the majority will grow out of gender dysphoria therefore it's unhelpful for lobby groups, clinicians and especially the media to be constantly affirming the idea of trans kids, particularly in those that are very young.

I so agree with you @OvaHere. If you look at the diagnostic criteria (they're in the judgement) it's literally (and I do mean that!) not conforming to sex stereotypes. e.g. Having a preference for the toys and clothes normally associated with the other sex, and rejecting those normally associated with your own sex. So being gender non-conforming = needing medication to align your body with the sex stereotypes you are drawn to. They are GNC kids and I thought that was supposed to be progress!

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

Who is going to guide the schools, clubs etc as to how they handle the kids they have been counselling thus far?

I've been wondering about this. Will the kids who have to stop taking blockers still be treated as the other sex? Might this make schools and sports clubs think again about their policies of letting people self-identify as the other sex and just join in as whatever gender they say they are?

I am glad these children won't have their futures blighted by PBs and CSH, but I'm not happy that boys can do girls' sport just on their say so. It seems like often the girls, and adult women, just accept the transgirls or transwomen into their teams and they all say how lovely they are. But what about the female who loses her place, or the other team who compete against a male body and it's not fair any more, and sometimes not as safe either?

I have heard of examples but it's really hard to know how widespread it is because
a. it gets hidden to avoid trouble
b. people won't say for fear of transphobia etc and
c. in some sports, like rowing or cycling where you tend to be more covered up, you don't always get a good look at your competitors so you can't be sure. And actually
d. some women welcome them - it makes them feel good, and might give their team an advantage.

@Kettlingur

They get their "information" from Yaoi anime...

I had no idea what "Yaoi" was so I googled the term. The first result I got was an anime series "Yuri on Ice" which, a total coincidence, I actually watched about three years ago.

How on earth can anyone watch something like the onsen scene in that and not imagine that they are going to have a bit of gay sex immediately afterwards?

And that it is entirely predicated on Victor and Yuri being gay. Or that gay men are attracted to other men with penises (I mean one penis each, not multiple).

I remember listening to a gay man speaking on a youtube video from a lesbian youtuber by the name of Arielle Scarcella (who is usually very gender critical) who, in the context of talking about which genitals arouses him stated quite candidly:-

"If I look at something and my dick doesn't work, then my dick doesn't work!"

I really don't understand why people thinking about this don't get it.

But there again, that's what the Keira Bell case was actually all about. Children and young people really are not competent enough to "get it" and fully understand the consequences of this and so need to be protected until they are competent enough to understand all the implications.

What all the people involved in this horrific mess need is more feminism. Actual feminism that decouples sex stereotypes from sex.

Instead of all the alluding to a List that imprisons everyone, how refreshing would it be to hear of the professionals involved challenging the sex stereotypes instead of reinforcing them? I get the argument that the focus on stereotypes is a form of coding that explains feelings of sex discomfort. I would always counter that with how much discomfort would exist without the stereotypes? Getting rid of the boxes must surely enhance inclusion rather than trying to impose inclusion based of box switching, which will always cause aggro because of accusations of appropriation.

What a mess. 2 key elements that would have avoided much of the current situation were driven forward (openly and subversively) - challenging sex stereotypes and naming MTF as transwomen instead of transmen and vice versa - and never questioned. Or, rather, the questioning was never heard.

I hope the recent legal cases cause a major rollback and all involved have cause to celebrate what will have been at great emotional cost.