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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Susie Green and Keira Bell on Newsnight

288 replies

OldeMagick · 02/12/2020 01:12

It's about halfway in

Emily Maitlis not giving an inch Grin

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000pyyc/newsnight-01122020

OP posts:
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8
ThatIsNotMyUsername · 02/12/2020 14:07

I suppose people’s PRs will be working overtime today.

RozWatching · 02/12/2020 14:10

@PotholeParadies

Is pulling Watson into this again an example of forced-teaming?
EW has been supporting Mermaids for years.
MarieIVanArkleStinks · 02/12/2020 14:11

No family member or boss or colleague or stranger can make you who you're not. Open or secret (for now) you're you".

On the face of it that's a kind, compassionate statement, showing due regard for every human being to be 'who they are', whatever that means, and live the way they want to live. What reasonable person could possibly argue with that? How are people's decisions about their personal identities affecting other people? How is this hurting them?

Until it comes to detransitioners.

This group of people are spoken about like pariahs by these ideological zealots. They are treated as though they are somehow traitors to a 'movement', albeit personal decisions about personal identity are not hurting others. Then why the hostility? Supposedly Keira Bell's trauma, her experiences, are worthy of nothing because she's supposedly 'atypical'. She was one of them, but she found her way back, just like those tweets claiming 'leaving' the 'gender critical movement' is akin to a painful break from an abusive partner. These people have DARVO down to a fine art.

The way in which Suzie Green callously minimised Keira Bell's experience (because there are hardly any people like that; more ad-hoc, nebulous 'statistics'-that-never-were) says a great deal about Suzie Green and none of it pretty. But they don't matter, according to Mermaids' CEO. Even though according to their own rhetoric no one can make you who you're not.

How anyone can take a word this woman says seriously, and how Mermaids have become the force for reckoning with they clearly are, beats the fuck out of me. Hopefully this judgement will clip their wings for a bit. I believe they are a dangerous organisation.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 02/12/2020 14:12

Mermaids, having supported ‘thousands’ of trans children and their families (according to Suze) both within and outside the NHS system over a number of years, were uniquely placed to compile their own data.

And they didn’t. So they had fuck all evidence to present.

PotholeParadies · 02/12/2020 14:16

Indeed she has. But if there was a possibility she might actually allow a glimmer of uncertainty to manifest itself and try to step away, Mermaids might have stifled it.

A cynical person in Watson's position might wager her chances of escaping the sinking ship successfully, and decide it's better to keep the ship afloat for her own sake. Even if the ship deserves to sink.

Sexnotgender · 02/12/2020 14:16

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

Mermaids, having supported ‘thousands’ of trans children and their families (according to Suze) both within and outside the NHS system over a number of years, were uniquely placed to compile their own data.

And they didn’t. So they had fuck all evidence to present.

Exactly. Unfortunately for SG woke cookies don’t count as evidence.
BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 02/12/2020 14:24

This reply has been deleted

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PotholeParadies · 02/12/2020 14:42

Slow hand claps for the BBC too. Look at that deliberately unflattering picture of Graham Linehan that someone chose to accompany the article. Made him look literally like a swivel-eyed loon. Deliberate, unprofessional decisiom.

HasaDigaEebowai · 02/12/2020 14:46

Currently on a webinar where a barrister is discussing the fact that this case is now on appeal and that there are issues with the judgment which can be challenged.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 02/12/2020 14:48

Yes, I see Jolyon has redirected his crowdfunder to pay for it.

nickymanchester · 02/12/2020 14:48

@SirVixofVixHall

I think the ethos in schools on this is part of the problem . If you are completely affirmed in this mid-teen dysphoria by everyone at school, if your teachers , who you trust, now call you a boy , where is there to go when you grow up a bit and start to regret that identity?

In the judgment, they made reference to this sort of thing. In the section where the judges were reviewing the law and relevant cases that were precedents, one of the cases that they highlighted at para 114 was:-

Re L (Medical Treatment: Gillick Competency) [1998] 2 F.L.R. 810

In this case, a 14 year old girl who was a Jehovah's Witness was refusing a blood transfusion which would save her life and "that the girl’s view as to having no blood transfusion is based on a very sincerely, strongly held religious belief which does not in fact lend itself in her mind to discussion".

On the other hand,:-

"It is one that has been formed by her in the context of her own family experience and the Jehovah’s Witness meetings where they all support this view."

So her whole experience was only of affirmation in this belief - in the same way that you mention everyone at school (and, no doubt, on social media) calling the pupil a boy. The judge then went on to point out:-

"He makes the point that there is a distinction between a view of this kind and the constructive formulation of an opinion which occurs with adult experience. That has not happened of course in the case of this young girl.”

"It is, therefore, a limited experience of life which she has – inevitably so – but this is in no sense a criticism of her or of her upbringing... But it does necessarily limit her understanding of matters which are as grave as her own present situation."

The courts do recognise that being in an echo chamber or self-contained bubble without hearing any dissenting voices does not enable a child to fully understand important issues.

MichelleofzeResistance · 02/12/2020 14:58

nicky a very key point.

Green has been emphasising the enormous emotional involvement of parents in their children's transition; her own story as she has shared it illustrates this. Again this shows why it is right that an impartial court should be looking at all people in this situation and their needs to agree on the best course for the child's best long term interests held apart from any adult investment or beliefs, regardless of how sincerely held.

SirVixofVixHall · 02/12/2020 14:58

That is interesting, thank you. I did try and discuss this with my friend, at one point in the conversation she mentioned that if she dissented she would lose her job. This insidious capture of schools needs to be challenged at every point.

Passmeabottlemrjones · 02/12/2020 18:01

I just watched the Newsnight clip and was just horrified at Susie Green. She comes across as flailing around desperately, throwing everything out there, including suicide several times, and hoping something sticks, Emily Maitlis is so cool and calm in comparison.

Agree with PP - why is it that all Susie has is 'anecdotal evidence'? She says herself she has worked with thousands of children and families, did they not think to collate some kind of date collection to justify what they were doing?

Totally think that Emma Watson quote tweet is a desperate attempt to start bringing others down with them!

I feel so sorry for all those poor children who were promised so much, who are now waiting for 'treatment', or who have actually started treatment, because this will be a blow for them. Because they were lied to by the adults around them.

Angryresister · 02/12/2020 19:45

Nauticant i just listened to the woman’s hour podcast and was astonished that what was not said...seemed an attempt to cover only the terrible effects on not able to get what they want. Nobody actually said that of course therapy and counselling would be put in place, which seems an obvious way forward. The emails at the end were carefully chosen and did reflect the GC view, a heterosexual woman who would have said she wanted to be a boy as a child, and a mother of a child just about to start at gids . Caring about her child who she said was bullied. Also slightly ott re how judgement will lead to transphobia. The presenter has asked people to contact them if they are affected by the judgement..so all those relieved parents could maybe write in...

BlackWaveComing · 02/12/2020 19:52

@MaudTheInvincible

This is the main reason I think social transitioning is fundamentally harmful. Changing names and pronouns and affirmation are not neutral.
Correct.

One can support the ROGD child without affirming them socially.

I'd exempt changes in personal style from this (hair, clothes). I think it's important to allow aesthetics to change while holding the line that a child's natal sex does not define their personality. Nothing wrong with butch girls or feminine boys.

nauticant · 02/12/2020 19:57

I was troubled by what I heard on Woman's Hour Angryresister. I honestly think the BBC are afraid of reporting honestly about this case and are motivated to soften its impact.

endofthelinefinally · 02/12/2020 19:59

The BBC are captured.

Angryresister · 02/12/2020 20:05

Agreed Nauticant and endof they seemed to be following a rather strange script in view of what the judgement was about.

LaValliere · 02/12/2020 21:32

Susie G is really bone headed. Gillick competence is a test applied in individual cases. You don’t stop applying that test in individual cases for a particular treatment because most people who have the treatment are happy with it. This falls into the “not even wrong” category; it’s so moronic one can’t really even engage with it.

Someone this ignorant should not be in a position of influence at a charity.

I suffered from MH problems when young and a relative killed themselves as a teen. I’m really concerned that SG’s hysterical melodramatic rantings & the publicity given to them are likely to cause suicides and trauma amongst vulnerable young people. I don’t understand how even Mermaids can enable such dangerous & irresponsible behaviour. It’s shocking.

ArabellaScott · 02/12/2020 22:31

I'm really concerned that SG’s hysterical melodramatic rantings & the publicity given to them are likely to cause suicides and trauma amongst vulnerable young people. I don’t understand how even Mermaids can enable such dangerous & irresponsible behaviour. It’s shocking.

Yes, between Jolyon Maugham telling the kids they'll need to get their drugs on the dark web and Mermaids telling them they'll have to suffer the hell of puberty, and suicides are likely, I can't believe these people are still in positions of apparent responsibility. I really hope that someone from GIDS or the Tavi steps up and offers a bit of level headed sobriety soon; this hyperbole and drama is in itself potentially damaging.

Passmeabottlemrjones · 02/12/2020 22:44

Yes, between Jolyon Maugham telling the kids they'll need to get their drugs on the dark web and Mermaids telling them they'll have to suffer the hell of puberty, and suicides are likely, I can't believe these people are still in positions of apparent responsibility. I really hope that someone from GIDS or the Tavi steps up and offers a bit of level headed sobriety soon; this hyperbole and drama is in itself potentially damaging.

Yes, it's unbelievable that they are allowed to freely perpetuate the idea that being a trans kid involves being suicidal, it's madness?!

The other thing that pissed me off about the interview was when she said about how these drugs are perfectly safe and have been used for decades (she started going about Denmark at one point I think?). If they have been used for decades for this purpose and are 'known to be safe' then why are they not licensed for this use?

endofthelinefinally · 02/12/2020 22:46

I think SG must be feeling a bit desperate. She is being confronted with a reality that is now colliding with her world, which is entirely based on her decision to use unlicensed drugs and drastic surgery on her child.
There is nothing else.

WhereAreWeNow · 02/12/2020 23:05

Maitlis is brilliant. She doesn't give SG an inch. Firm, polite, unyielding. A masterclass.

NotBadConsidering · 02/12/2020 23:10

nauticant

To clarify further, the “fewer than 1% detransition” lie is usually accompanied by this paper from the Netherlands:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/

It is frequently embedded as a link in newspaper articles etc.

Except what it actually shows is that fewer than 1% regret the gonadectomy they have undertaken. So they asked the most committed of all medical trans patients if they regretted gonadectomy and fewer than 1% did.

This paper in no way describes that fewer than 1% regret puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, the infertility they now have, the fact their sexual function never existed, their mastectomy, their vaginal atrophy, their permanent facial hair, their permanent voice change. None of that is listed. None of that has been explored.

It’s a deliberate and totally scandalous use of a paper to legitimise a process in a false way.

It’s utter lies, and anyone who repeats that trope is just as reckless as someone who repeats false suicide stats.

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