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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Keira

999 replies

YouNoob · 01/12/2020 10:25

Live tweets from Belstaffie here:

mobile.twitter.com/Belstaffie/status/1333716720176033793

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 21:47

147. We do however recognise that in the light of the evidence that has emerged, and the terms of this judgment, clinicians may well consider that it is not appropriate to move to treatment, such as PBs or CSH, without the involvement of the court. We consider that it would be appropriate for clinicians to involve the court in any case where there may be any doubt as to whether the long-term best interests of a 16 or 17 year old would be served by the clinical interventions at issue in this case.

^148. We express that view for these reasons. First, the clinical interventions involve significant, long-term and, in part, potentially irreversible long-term physical, and psychological consequences for young persons. The treatment involved is truly life
changing, going as it does to the very heart of an individual’s identity. Secondly, at
present, it is right to call the treatment experimental or innovative in the sense that there are currently limited studies/evidence of the efficacy or long-term effects of the treatment.^

^149. The position of the defendant and the Trusts is that they consider it would be an intrusion into the child or young person’s autonomy if a decision about treatment with PBs were to be made by the court not by the patient. They are concerned about the use of NHS and court resources if these decisions have to be made by the court. We do not consider that this is the correct approach. In principle, a young person’s autonomy should be protected and supported; however, it is the role of the court to protect children, and particularly a vulnerable child’s best interests. The decisions in respect of PBs have lifelong and life-changing consequences for the children. Apart perhaps from life-saving treatment, there will be no more profound medical decisions for children than whether to start on this treatment pathway. In those circumstances we consider that
it is appropriate that the court should determine whether it is in the child’s best interests to take PBs. There is a real benefit in the court, almost certainly with a child’s guardian appointed, having oversight over the decision. In any case, under the inherent jurisdiction concerning medical treatment for those under the age of 18, there is likely to be a conflict between the support of autonomy and the protective role of the court.^

As we have explained above, we consider this treatment to be one where the protective role of the court is appropriate.

150. The claimants’ alternative ground is that the information provided by the defendant and the Trusts is inadequate to form the basis of informed consent. We accept that the defendant and the Trusts have in their written information, to children, young people and their parents and carers, tried hard to explain the potential consequences of PBs, including that of moving on to CSH, and to give full information. They have alsoattempted to do this in an age appropriate manner. The problem is not the information given, but the ability of the children and young people, to understand and most importantly weigh up that information. The approach of the defendant appears to have been to work on the assumption that if they give enough information and discuss it sufficiently often with the children, they will be able to achieve Gillick competency. As we have explained above, we do not think that this assumption is correct.

OVERALL CONCLUSION
^151. A child under 16 may only consent to the use of medication intended to suppress
puberty where he or she is competent to understand the nature of the treatment. That includes an understanding of the immediate and long-term consequences of the treatment, the limited evidence available as to its efficacy or purpose, the fact that the vast majority of patients proceed to the use of cross-sex hormones, and its potential life changing consequences for a child. There will be enormous difficulties in a child under
16 understanding and weighing up this information and deciding whether to consent to the use of puberty blocking medication. It is highly unlikely that a child aged 13 or under would be competent to give consent to the administration of puberty blockers. It is doubtful that a child aged 14 or 15 could understand and weigh the long-term risks and consequences of the administration of puberty blockers.^

^152. In respect of young persons aged 16 and over, the legal position is that there is a
presumption that they have the ability to consent to medical treatment. Given the long-term consequences of the clinical interventions at issue in this case, and given that the treatment is as yet innovative and experimental, we recognise that clinicians may well regard these as cases where the authorisation of the court should be sought prior to commencing the clinical treatment.^

Pretty much spot on what everyone here concerned about safe guarding has been saying for some time...

Deltoids1 · 01/12/2020 21:48

Susie Green v Emily Matlis?
I may have to stay up. Emily Matlis was excellent when Newsnight covered GIDS before. Green will not get off lightly.

RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 21:51

@yourhairiswinterfire

I think we can all accurately guess what Green is going to come out with...
Susie Green did something which would now clearly be illegal without court approval.

But then we've been saying that on MN for some time that child welfare and safeguarding in the Susie Green scenario has been highly questionable. We now have a court ruling spelling this out.

Susie Green has no option but to double down. We've also said that here.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 01/12/2020 21:51

Ms Swarbrick had carried out an analysis of a random sample of 312 of 1648 files of patients discharged from GIDS from 1st March 2019 to 4th March 2020.

Considering this was to produce evidence for a hearing at the high court, how come they only looked at 19% of patient files?

ListeningQuietly · 01/12/2020 21:51

misslucy
not the real Mermaids account

fastwigglylines · 01/12/2020 21:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

nothingcomestonothing · 01/12/2020 21:52

I'm very late to the party I know but I couldn't not call in and say a massive thank you to Keira Bell and Mrs A, for shining light on ideology-based medicine. Children will be safer because of their bravery, and that of all who stick their heads above the parapet of woke orthodoxy. Flowers

RozWatching · 01/12/2020 21:56

adults can consent to do things that permanently alter their bodies - like getting a tattoo or having cosmetic surgery. However, those procedures are also regulated. An adult can't ask a surgeon to remove a healthy organ or amputate a limb just because they demonstrate that they understand the risks and have signed a consent form.

It was possible at one point. Russell Reid, formerly of GIDS, was involved.

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/

Thread by Malcolm Clark
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1224766770805866499.html

"20 years ago I was called in to help on a Horizon that was the strangest I've ever worked on. I flew out to Germany to interview a man who wanted to have a perfectly healthy leg removed. The man believed his inner innate identity was as an amputee.
10./ His psychiatrist was an erstwhile student of Money, Russell Reid. Like Money he'd long been fascinated by people who were sexually aroused by the idea of being amputees (amnepotophiles) but by the 90s he began to argue this wasn't a fetish. It was their core inner identity.
11./ He compared this to 'gender identity'. Reid was at the time the UK's biggest expert in transsexual care & provided influential expert testimony during the passage of the Gender Recognition Act (2004). Reid argued doctors should always affirm transsexuals' gender identities.
12./ Otherwise he said they would commit suicide. He now took the same approach on 'Amputee Identity', referring the German & another patient to a surgeon to remove their chosen limbs."

justanotherneighinparadise · 01/12/2020 22:00

@ListeningQuietly

misslucy not the real Mermaids account
I had no idea there were fake parody accounts on Twitter. Sorry for the derail. In my defence I’m so used to these organisation spouting double speak and deleting tweets/reframing text to try and align to a new accepted opinion, the tweet seemed entirely plausible!
BewaretheIckabog · 01/12/2020 22:00

I’m so pleased with this result. I do see further lawsuits ahead - malpractice, negligence but can’t imagine anyone will be held accountable.

Lawsuits against the NHS will be paid out of the public purse.

The wake up call needs to be an end to public bodies having their policy influenced by lobby groups without proper parliamentary and public scrutiny.

Tierful · 01/12/2020 22:12

Just catching up on this. What a wonderful brave young woman Keira is, I’m so delighted at this ruling yet so sad at what she and others have gone through.Flowers

ArabellaScott · 01/12/2020 22:13

Woah, just seen this:

'On top of immediate cessation of new referrals for puberty blockers for under 16s, the Tavistock's Gender Identity Development Service will also now review all current cases of children under 16 who are on blockers. Court order required if they wish to continue treatment.'

twitter.com/hannahsbee/status/1333881591706374144

  • sorry if it's already been posted, fast thread!
nauticant · 01/12/2020 22:15

Susie Green has no option but to double down. We've also said that here.

Remember that it was only reecently that Mermaids dumped one of their articles of faith "born in the wrong body" in a trice when they realised they couldn't sustain it. But now we're at the fundamentals that Mermaids cannot risk dropping*, that not giving puberty blockers is the cruelest thing imaginable, so cruel that it kills. However, for this to hold it requires the holiest of holies to hold: trans kids do not detransition. If detransitioners exist in a way that is other than freakishly rare, it all falls apart. Green knows she's looking at an existential threat.

*to acknowledge this would break Green herself

RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 22:16

@BewaretheIckabog

I’m so pleased with this result. I do see further lawsuits ahead - malpractice, negligence but can’t imagine anyone will be held accountable.

Lawsuits against the NHS will be paid out of the public purse.

The wake up call needs to be an end to public bodies having their policy influenced by lobby groups without proper parliamentary and public scrutiny.

The big thing here is how this impact medical liability insurance.
RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 22:17

@nauticant

Susie Green has no option but to double down. We've also said that here.

Remember that it was only reecently that Mermaids dumped one of their articles of faith "born in the wrong body" in a trice when they realised they couldn't sustain it. But now we're at the fundamentals that Mermaids cannot risk dropping*, that not giving puberty blockers is the cruelest thing imaginable, so cruel that it kills. However, for this to hold it requires the holiest of holies to hold: trans kids do not detransition. If detransitioners exist in a way that is other than freakishly rare, it all falls apart. Green knows she's looking at an existential threat.

*to acknowledge this would break Green herself

Green is Trump.
HecatesCats · 01/12/2020 22:22

The wake up call needs to be an end to public bodies having their policy influenced by lobby groups without proper parliamentary and public scrutiny.

Absolutely and journalists need to play their part too. They've been asleep on the job. So many have taken the word of organisations like Stonewall and Mermaids (until relatively recently BBC) as Gospel while children have been used as pawns in a political game. Solidarity with Janice, Suzanne, James and the like who have been prepared to put themselves in the firing line, but otherwise what a collective abdication of duty. I hope proper scrutiny will be the order of the day going forwards when it comes to organisations claiming to advocate for kids by recommending putting them on experimental, potentially highly damaging, irreversible pathways to lifelong medical treatment.

MoonPomme · 01/12/2020 22:22

Ive just watched the sky news report again.
They've got a trans boy at the end for balance i suppose, he looks younger than Keira. The language of his mother is really strange. The whole piece is quite odd.

MoonPomme · 01/12/2020 22:24

Also stated stonewall research found less than 1% detransition.
Hmm.
Sorry im not very coherent tonigth, I've got back out of bed to watch newsnight.

napody · 01/12/2020 22:25

InvisibleDragon and RedToothbrush thank you for the explanations on experimental treatments, trials and informed consent. Agree with a pp who said what's been happening at the Tavi doesnt deserve the term 'experimental' when it's the wild west! If puberty blockers were given to teens of any age or adults and told that they are known to be reversible, surely they are now open to litigation?

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 01/12/2020 22:26

Just finished reading the full judgement and I am blown the fuck away. How have they got away with this so long? Just thinking of all the children whose futures have been stolen from them by these people is gut wrenching. They'd all be in jail if it was up to me. I cannot even begin to thank Kiera enough. You're beyond incredible.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 01/12/2020 22:27

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

Ah thumb it was too delicious. The WPUK released their accounts and what’s this? A donation from Lush (UK?).

A bit of tantrumming on twitter. Demands to know if this hideous fact was truth or damned womanly lies. Howls of ‘then I will have to return my already bought Christmas presents!!!’ And ‘why are they lying???’

Crocodile eating the bath bombs. It always happens.

Oh that is just beautiful - thank you! Halloween Grin

We have Lush in Australia too (sadly) but news of this hadn't filtered through, well not to anywhere I had seen!

Bloody hypocrites!

MichelleofzeResistance · 01/12/2020 22:29

They've been asleep on the job. So many have taken the word of organisations like Stonewall and Mermaids

From what Suzanne is saying about The Guardian on Twitter, it's worse than that and national papers have actually forbidden their journalists from investigating information in fear that they will identify facts and truths that may be damaging to a political narrative.

That's...…… active colluding to suppress unwanted information. In order to maintain an uninterrupted - I don't know what word to use here. It's mind blowing. National papers have actively worked to avoid investigating serious issues of public interest through this political lobby and their agenda.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 01/12/2020 22:31

Not exactly the right thread for this, except that the timing may be relevant - have you seen this from Ellen Page? Now to be known as Elliot Page, apparently.
twitter.com/glaad/status/1333821336985145347/photo/1

HecatesCats · 01/12/2020 22:32

National papers have actively worked to avoid investigating serious issues of public interest through this political lobby and their agenda.

It's shameful. It puts a spotlight on how just how brave Keira has been to speak out.

gardenbird48 · 01/12/2020 22:32

Keira made the 10 o clock news!!!

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