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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Keira

999 replies

YouNoob · 01/12/2020 10:25

Live tweets from Belstaffie here:

mobile.twitter.com/Belstaffie/status/1333716720176033793

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
PronounssheRa · 01/12/2020 20:52

It seems journalists were prevented from investigating what was going on. Suzanne Moore says it was one of the reasons she left the guardian.

There is still the JR on Safeguarding Concerns at GIDS to come.

Keira
ThatIsNotMyUsername · 01/12/2020 20:53

I’d love to hear more about that.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 01/12/2020 21:00

Moore mentions it here somewhere. I listened yesterday, will try and find a time stamp:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=wSVd36xEplY

PurpleHoodie · 01/12/2020 21:00
Flowers Marvellous. Just marvellous news.
FlibbertyGiblets · 01/12/2020 21:00

A messy business indeed, Suzanne.( from her tweet)

Keira I hope you are okay tonight, it has been a bit of a day for you.

RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 21:01

BUT they hinted with talk of experimental procedures that adequate information isnt being given. Therefore does that mean adults can't give informed consent at present too? Given that the 'informed' bit needs adequate accurate information which isn't available? Are they telling adults that long term effects are unclear?

Medical ethics in the uk bar experimental treatment on children in ALL circumstances bar in the most extreme cases if there is no other alternative and all other avenues have been fully persued. To put it another way, only in cases where a condition is otherwise terminal or extremely life limiting in terms of disability. And arguably if you do this on a large scale a duty of care would include proper follow up monitoring and studying of outcomes.

For adults the threshold for allowing experimental treatment isn't as strict. However adults are still subject to informed consent. That includes understanding there is an additional risk to experimental treatment and understanding that it may fail to deliver on what it promises.

Arguably adults who are vulnerable - so have long term poor mental health - are not ideal candidates for experimental drugs. If they are desperate then they may be more liable to make decisions which are not in their own interests. Doctors have to be on the ball and recognise if a patient has unrealistic expectations about an experimental drug and balance that with the possible benefits they may have. You also have the concept of how informed consent only applies if there is no 'undue pressure or influence' being present. That could be a social group, an adult in a position of influence (for example a 17 year old being influenced by a teacher) or social media.

If a patient is demonstrating they have unrealistic expectations and don't take the risk of side effects seriously they are unable to be considered to be making an informed decision and a doctor should take this into consideration.

A doctor is morally bound to do no harm and put the best interests of a patient first.

If its an experimental treatment there is no obligation for doctors to allow a patient onto a trial because the drug/treatment isn't approved and a preferred recommended pathway does not exist. Its purely something at the discretion of a practitioner.

This is where puberty blockers as an option are particularly strange because even though they are experimental and for children they appear to have become a recommended pathway. Which is completely contradictary with ethics and law in this area.

So yes, vulnerable adults and experimental drugs could be an area where yes, an informed consent threshold still may not be being reached.

And yes if you are doing experimental treatment on adults (inc 17 and 18 year olds) again there should be some kind of follow up on outcomes to enable informed consent for new patients and if you aren't doing this, there are a lot of questions about whether you are indeed enabling informed consent. With holding this information or failing to record it, is quite problematic is you are doing so over a prolonged period of time especially if you have no adequate explanation of why you are failing in your duty of care by doing this.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 01/12/2020 21:15

Here’s the time stamp for the beginning of the segment where Moore mentions GIDS:

PurpleHoodie · 01/12/2020 21:15

I have a question.

In theory or practice, could International arrest warrants be issued against anyone providing puberty blockers and/or cross sex hormones to children (or their families/guardians) where the children hold UK citizenship? (Regardless of where they reside)

PurpleHoodie · 01/12/2020 21:20

If a UK doctor residing in say - France or Argentina - were to sell these PB/cross sex drugs, or provide a prescription for issue in a Pharmacist, could an International arrest warrant be issued?

(Idle musing)

ListeningQuietly · 01/12/2020 21:22

Providing the drugs to a child in the UK would be illegal - parents who did so would be in trouble
medics would be in mega trouble

taking a child overseas would have to go through the court of protection (as has been established in cases like Charlie Gard)

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 01/12/2020 21:22

Funnily enough, on a very BeardyWokeBro website I frequent, which badges itself as super inclusive, there is not even a whisper of this case anywhere...

fastwigglylines · 01/12/2020 21:25

Not a peep in the woke groups I lurk in either. They are talking about boycotting Lush though Hmm

BlackForestCake · 01/12/2020 21:28

Apparently Keira is on Newsnight later up against Susie Green!
twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1333881218346061825

yourhairiswinterfire · 01/12/2020 21:31

I think we can all accurately guess what Green is going to come out with...

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/12/2020 21:32

That's very unusual isn't it for a TRA to appear live, and share a platform with someone they deem transphobic?

DickKerrLadies · 01/12/2020 21:32

[quote BlackForestCake]Apparently Keira is on Newsnight later up against Susie Green!
twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1333881218346061825[/quote]
Well, looks like I'm putting the kettle on then!

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 01/12/2020 21:34

Keira is an absolute fucking diamond!

I hope Keira is taking the Triggerpod boys up on their offer of an interview. I notice their Posie episode has now become their most viewed interview of all time, so their audience is definitely interested in the topic.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/12/2020 21:34

GIDS service specifications updated:

twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1333881586715136000?s=19

(Sorry can't find source of original)

Keira
Keira
McDuffy · 01/12/2020 21:35

Absolutely thrilled for Keira and Mrs A. There was definite kitchen dancing here today Grin
Thank you to all the amazing posters here who break it down and analyse it further for the rest of us. I've learned so much from you all over the past 2+ years and I'm in awe of your knowledge, tenacity and determination to protect women and children.

Thingybob · 01/12/2020 21:38

I don't know if it's already been mentioned but NHS England have updated GIDS service specification in light of today's judgement. I can't link to it but Mermaids have a link on twitter

Thingybob · 01/12/2020 21:39

You beat me to it Itsallgoingtobefine

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 01/12/2020 21:40

I wonder if Keira is game to try and get the GRA amended to add an annulment option next?

Seeing as she’s currently stuck legally male (as the service spec doc above has reminded me).

RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 21:40

My jaw dropped as I read it and when I got to paragraph 44....well. Paragraphs 58 and 59. Paragraph 60. Paragraph 73. On and on goes the litany of negligence and wilful blindness - tying in with what InvisibleDragon says above about the lack of good faith.

The concluding paragraphs - 134 onwards - are really clear and also devastating.

44. The court asked for statistical material on the number, if any, of young people who had been assessed to be suitable for PBs but who were not prescribed them because the young person was considered not to be Gillick competent to make the decision, whether at GIDS or the Trusts. Ms Morris could not produce any statistics on whether this situation had ever arisen. She suggested that in the main, GIDS would work with the young person to give them further information, discuss the matter further and in some cases wait until they had achieved further maturity. The court gained the strong impression from the evidence and from those submissions that it was extremely unusual for either GIDS or the Trusts to refuse to give PBs on the ground that the young person was not competent to give consent. The approach adopted appears to be to continue giving the child more information and to have more discussions until s/he is considered Gillick competent or is discharged.

It looks very much like there was no such assessment and the default position was to presume competence was at a sufficient level. The lack of monitoring of this strengthens the idea that little or no concern was given to capability on the basis of age/maturity. Its a massive oversight which exposes the service to some pretty big questions.

58. We were told that the defendant did not have any data recording the proportion of those on puberty blockers who progress to cross-sex hormones. We were told that in part this resulted from the fact that some would have progressed to adult services and would not be recorded by the defendant. Ms Swarbrick had carried out an analysis of a random sample of 312 of 1648 files of patients discharged from GIDS from 1st March 2019 to 4th March 2020. Dr Carmichael summarised this as:
“…based on a random sample of those referred to GIDS who had been discharged or had a closing summary from GIDS in 19-20 (analysis B) 16% of patients (49 individuals) had accessed the endocrinology service during their time with GIDS. Of those 16%, 55% (27 individuals) were subsequently approved for or accessed cross-sex hormones during their time with GIDS. This number represents 8.7% of all the patients discharged from GIDS that year. We also know that of the 49 patients who were referred to endocrinology for GnRHa whilst at GIDS, two did not commence GnRHa treatment, and a further five were discharged from GIDS without being referred on to another gender service.”

59. We find it surprising that GIDS did not obtain full data showing the figures and the proportion of those on puberty blockers who remain within GIDS and move on to cross-sex hormones. Although neither Dr Carmichael nor Professor Butler could give the equivalent figures in the United Kingdom to those from the Netherlands, the language used in their witness statements suggests that a similarly high proportion of children and young people in the United Kingdom move from PBs onto CSH.

The impact of Puberty Blockers and their reversibility
60. Both WPATH and the Endocrine Society in their documentation describe PBs as fully reversible. Professor Butler says that “we do not know everything about the blocker and as far as we know it is a safe reversible treatment with a well-established history.” Dr Alvi also referred to the history of the use of PBs as showing that they are fully reversible. However, it is important to note that apart from the Amsterdam study, the history of the use of PBs relied upon in this context is from the treatment of precociouspuberty which is a different condition from GD, and where PBs are used in a very different way.

So far from the position that puberty blockers were fully reversable it looks to the contrary. But worse than that the clinic can't say this either way because they never monitored whether puberty blockers were reversable because they never followed up and checked even though they were telling patients and their parents they were fully reversable.

This means it was impossible for anyone involved to make informed decisions. From clinicians, to parents, to patients.

They were experimenting, but worse than that they weren't actually coming up with any conclusions because the drug use was never monitored for effectiveness or problems later on. Its therefore difficult to argue that these drugs were being used in an experimental way. They were just being administered without thought to consequences down the line to current patients and without thought to future patients.

73. The Evaluation Paper on the Early Intervention Study at GIDS, referred to in para 25 above, gives some (albeit limited) material on the outcome of that study. It summarised a meeting paper presented by Dr Carmichael and Professor Viner in 2014 (but not published in a peer review journal) as follows:

“The reported qualitative data on early outcomes of 44 young people who received early pubertal suppression. It noted that 100% of young people stated that they wished to continue on GnRHa, that 23 (52%) reported an improvement in mood since starting the blocker but that 27% reported a decrease in mood. Noted that there was no overall improvement in mood or psychological wellbeing using standardized psychological measures .” (emphasis added)

So what evidence there was, didn't seem to support the idea that the drug had any meaningful improvement for the patient but given there were side effects, harm was actively being done without benefit.

This isnt even about the capacity of patients to consent. This is into clinical malpractice and ethically dubious conduct and procedure which children have been caught up in. This is significant.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 01/12/2020 21:47

@justanotherneighinparadise

Sorry have I lost the plot here!? In this tweet are Mermaids now doing a reverse ferret on puberty blockers and saying they are harmful? I thought they advocated their use!?
Fuck me. That's a step beyond a mere reverse ferret. It's a gold-plated, top of the range, for the love of god please don't sue us, reverse ferret Grin
RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 21:47

^134. The starting point is to consider the nature of the treatment proposed. The
administration of PBs to people going through puberty is a very unusual treatment for the following reasons. Firstly, there is real uncertainty over the short and long-term consequences of the treatment with very limited evidence as to its efficacy, or indeed quite what it is seeking to achieve. This means it is, in our view, properly described as experimental treatment. Secondly, there is a lack of clarity over the purpose of the treatment: in particular, whether it provides a “pause to think” in a “hormone neutral” state or is a treatment to limit the effects of puberty, and thus the need for greater surgical and chemical intervention later, as referred to in the Health Research Authority report. Thirdly, the consequences of the treatment are highly complex and potentially
lifelong and life changing in the most fundamental way imaginable. The treatment goes to the heart of an individual’s identity, and is thus, quite possibly, unique as a medical treatment.^

^135. Furthermore, the nature and the purpose of the medical intervention must be considered. The condition being treated, GD, has no direct physical manifestation. In contrast, the treatment provided for that condition has direct physical consequences, as the medication is intended to and does prevent the physical changes that would otherwise occur within the body, in particular by stopping the biological and physical development that would otherwise take place at that age. There is also an issue as to whether GD is properly categorised as a psychological condition, as the DSM-5 appears to do, although we recognise there are those who would not wish to see the condition
categorised in that way. Be that as it may, in our judgment for the reasons already
identified, the clinical intervention we are concerned with here is different in kind to
other treatments or clinical interventions. In other cases, medical treatment is used to remedy, or alleviate the symptoms of, a diagnosed physical or mental condition, and the effects of that treatment are direct and usually apparent. The position in relation to puberty blockers would not seem to reflect that description.^

^136. Indeed the consequences which flow from taking PBs for GD and which must be
considered in the context of informed consent, fall into two (interlinking) categories. Those that are a direct result of taking the PBs themselves, and those that follow on from progression to Stage 2, that is taking cross-sex hormones. The defendant and the Trusts argue that Stage 1 and 2 are entirely separate; a child can stop taking PBs at any time and that Stage 1 is fully reversible. It is said therefore the child needs only to understand the implications of taking PBs alone to be Gillick competent. In our view this does not reflect the reality. The evidence shows that the vast majority of children who take PBs move on to take cross-sex hormones, that Stages 1 and 2 are two stages of one clinical pathway and once on that pathway it is extremely rare for a child to get off it.^

^137. The defendant argues that PBs give the child “time to think”, that is, to decide whether or not to proceed to cross-sex hormones or to revert to development in the natal sex. But the use of puberty blockers is not itself a neutral process by which time stands still for the child on PBs, whether physically or psychologically. PBs prevent the child going through puberty in the normal biological process. As a minimum it seems to us that this means that the child is not undergoing the physical and consequential psychological
changes which would contribute to the understanding of a person’s identity. There is an argument that for some children at least, this may confirm the child’s chosen gender identity at the time they begin the use of puberty blockers and to that extent, confirm their GD and increase the likelihood of some children moving on to cross-sex hormones. Indeed, the statistical correlation between the use of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones supports the case that it is appropriate to view PBs as a stepping stone to cross-sex hormones.^

^138. It follows that to achieve Gillick competence the child or young person would have to understand not simply the implications of taking PBs but those of progressing to cross-sex hormones. The relevant information therefore that a child would have to understand, retain and weigh up in order to have the requisite competence in relation to PBs, would be as follows: (i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms; (ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking PBs go on to CSH and therefore that s/he is on a pathway to much greater medical interventions;
(iii) the relationship between taking CSH and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery; (iv) the fact that CSH may well lead to a loss of fertility; (v) the impact of CSH on sexual function; (vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships; (vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking PBs; and (viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain.^

^139. It will obviously be difficult for a child under 16 to understand and weigh up such
information. Although a child may understand the concept of the loss of fertility for example, this is not the same as understanding how this will affect their adult life. A child’s attitude to having biological children and their understanding of what this really means, is likely to change between childhood and adulthood. For many children, certainly younger children, and some as young as 10 and just entering puberty, it will not be possible to conceptualise what not being able to give birth to children (or conceive children with their own sperm) would mean in adult life. Similarly, the meaning of sexual fulfilment, and what the implications of treatment may be for this in the future, will be impossible for many children to comprehend.^

140. Ms Morris submitted that many decisions about complex and long-lasting medical treatment will involve the patient having, to some degree, to imagine themselves into an uncertain future of which they have no experience. However, for the reasons that we have explained in para 135 above we consider the treatment in this case to be in entirely different territory from the type of medical treatment which is normally being considered.

141. Some of the children and young people who have been treated at GIDS say in their witness statements that the thought of sex disgusted them, or they did not really think about fertility. These normal reactions do not detract from the difficulties surrounding consent and treatment with PBs. That adolescents find it difficult to contemplate or comprehend what their life will be like as adults and that they do not always consider the longer-term consequences of their actions is perhaps a statement of the obvious.

^142. These various difficulties are compounded by the particular difficulties prevalent in the cohort of children treated at GIDS. On the defendant’s case, they suffer considerable psychological distress by reason of their GD and are highly vulnerable. In those circumstances, the consequences of taking PBs on their fertility for example, or on their sexual life, may be viewed as a relatively small price to pay for what may be perceived as a solution to their immediate and real psychological distress. It would not follow
however that their weighing of risks and benefits when they might start taking PBs
would prevail in the longer-term.^

^143. The difficulty of achieving informed consent in these circumstances is further
exacerbated by the lack of evidence as to the efficacy of PBs in treating GD and the
long-term outcomes of taking it. We entirely accept that the fact that a treatment is experimental, or that the long-term outcomes are not yet known, does not of itself prevent informed consent being given. Otherwise no experimental treatment could ever be consented to. However, the combination here of lifelong and life changing treatment being given to children, with very limited knowledge of the degree to which it will or will not benefit them, is one that gives significant grounds for concern.^

144. We do not think that the answer to this case is simply to give the child more, and more detailed, information. The issue in our view is that in many cases, however much information the child is given as to long-term consequences, s/he will not be able to weigh up the implications of the treatment to a sufficient degree. There is no age appropriate way to explain to many of these children what losing their fertility or full sexual function may mean to them in later years.

^145. Gillick makes clear that any decision is treatment and person specific. However, for the reasons that we have set out above, we think that it is appropriate in this case to give clear guidance as to the application of the Gillick tests to the treatment and cohort of children in question. The conclusion we have reached is that it is highly unlikely that a child aged 13 or under would ever be Gillick competent to give consent to being treated with PBs. In respect of children aged 14 and 15, we are also very doubtful that a child of this age could understand the long-term risks and consequences of treatment in such
a way as to have sufficient understanding to give consent. However, plainly the increased maturity of the child means that there is more possibility of achieving competence at the older age.^

^146. In respect of a young person aged 16 or over, the legal position is different. There is a presumption of capacity under section 8 of the Family Law Reform Act 1969. As is explained in Re W, that does not mean that a court cannot protect the child under its
inherent jurisdiction if it considers the treatment not to be in the child’s best interests.^

^However, so long as the young person has mental capacity and the clinicians consider
the treatment is in his/her best interests, then absent a possible dispute with the parents, the court generally has no role. We do not consider that the court can somehow adopt an intrusive jurisdiction in relation to one form of clinical intervention for which no clear legal basis has been established.^

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