Keira

[YouNoob]

Live tweets from Belstaffie here:

mobile.twitter.com/Belstaffie/status/1333716720176033793

Trans rights are human rights is trending again. Wish they'd change the record for just one day.

Experimenting on kids is not a human right. This is experimental treatment. People should be appalled at everything that came to light in this case, not stamping their feet and sulking about it.

If people had done their jobs properly, if research had been carried out and records kept, patients followed up on, with science to back it up, this would have gone differently. As it turns out, ideology and anecdotal evidence just won't cut it in court, because the high court isn't Twitter.

They should be directing their anger at all the organisations that acted unethically, that have sold them lies. Not at the nasty 'terfs', which they also predictably got trending.

Easier to blame women though, I suppose, than to put their hands up and admit they were wrong. The delusion is so strong, I just don't know whether to feel sorry for them or angry at them at this point.

I literally jumped out of my seat punching the air and shouting 'YESSSSSSS!!!' when I read this ruling.
My kids came running to see what the commotion was about

Keira, I'm sure you are responsible for much air punching, shouting, kitchen dancing and a few tears, by many women today.

At last. The truth is breaking through.
Thank you.

*I’d say Kiera has done quite a lot in the fight for trans rights tbh, regardless of whether anyone thinks she should have said “less transphobia” too.

She’s established, via a high court ruling, that children identifying as trans have the right to the exact same standard of care and protection as all other children being given medical treatment. Truly a victory for those who actually care about the rights of trans identifying children.*

Excellent point.

Just wanted to say thank you to Keira and her team. I just saw the Channel 4 interview, you are so articulate and you've been very brave. Best wishes to you .

Jake Graf has delivered a very responsible and positive message to young gender dysphoric kids on their Instagram story just now. They only have been able to have their gorgeous daughter because they went through their own female puberty and were able to preserve and freeze some of their eggs. I appreciate their responsibility in saying, yes, you too can go through your own puberty and come out the other side and perhaps have the life that they and their wife have (I’m paraphrasing)

It is refreshing to hear this message being made by such a key figure in the trans community - I think all the hysteria at the moment from the likes of some people on Twitter and on Mermaid’s live thread is so irresponsible and the implications being made by some people on there is not in keeping with Samaritan guidelines.

Keira, I'm sure you are responsible for much air punching, shouting, kitchen dancing and a few tears, by many women today.

Amen!

That's really interesting shesheshe

From Julie Bindel's article in the Spectator linked above:

It was also revealed thatat_ 35 psychologists had resigned from GIDS in the space of three years, with many concerned about the service ‘over-diagnosing’ young people with gender dysphoria.*

35. Thirty-five. In three years. Fucking hell.

Have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. Kiera you are an absolute shero. Thank you for putting yourself through this to protect future generations. I didn't realise how worried I was about my daughter and the young girls I teach until this ruling let me breathe out and relax for the first time in a long time. I know we're not out of the woods yet but this is massive.

@Sheheshehe

Jake Graf has delivered a very responsible and positive message to young gender dysphoric kids on their Instagram story just now. They only have been able to have their gorgeous daughter because they went through their own female puberty and were able to preserve and freeze some of their eggs. I appreciate their responsibility in saying, yes, you too can go through your own puberty and come out the other side and perhaps have the life that they and their wife have (I’m paraphrasing)

It is refreshing to hear this message being made by such a key figure in the trans community - I think all the hysteria at the moment from the likes of some people on Twitter and on Mermaid’s live thread is so irresponsible and the implications being made by some people on there is not in keeping with Samaritan guidelines.

That’s interesting and positive.

Well done to Jake for clearly demonstrating why waiting till adulthood before embarking on medical intervention is a good thing.

@Typesofcatalogue

You don’t think it’s an odd omission?

No.

What an incredible brave young woman. So pleased to see this news, keeping children safe should always be a priority, just sad that it took a high court to get there, goodness knows how many people there are facing lifelong health problems due to puberty blockers.

I don't know napody, but what I do know is that when I do capacity assessments the onus is on me to give the relevant information to the person, see if they can retain it and use it effectively to weigh up the decision, which includes the consequences. It'd be a cold day in hell before I felt informed enough to even approach this decision with someone, it's incredibly complex.

It is different with adults though, where you're presumed to have capacity unless you meet the diagnostic threshold (imbalance of the mind or brain) and there's a reasonable belief that you may lack the capacity to make the decision. As an aside, I have to say that in my years of experience, the average doctor is appalling at capacity assessments, and psychiatrists even worse, they often call in us lowly Social Workers to do them because it's generally acknowledged that we're more experienced in this area.

Was pleased to see Keira on the ITV news tonight.
Thank you for having the strength and courage to take it as far as you have, for the sake of all the kids and young people.

I read back through Gillick, Fraser and consent on various .gov.uk and NHS web pages. I know this was a judicial review, but it really does spell out that these tests were already there.. they should have been applying this level of care. Reasonable alternatives were not offered.

I didn't think Jake Graf's message was that positive? Jake didn't actually say 'if I had transitioned as a teenager I wouldn't be able to have mothered fathered a child' he just alluded to that fact and just said that he and others they might followed went through the puberty of their sex and 'came out the other side'. I don't think young people, particularly young people who are upset right now, will understand what Jake is alluding to. Generally, he seemed to be saying this ruling was a bad thing.

As a gran I am so thrilled that kids can't have these experimental drugs ruining their future. I was a boy in my head in the 1950s up till & a bit after 13, but it was secret. I know plenty of other women who were. No-one is at home with their body or self in puberty. Keira is a wonderful brave young woman, I thank her with all my heart.

That's very interesting that Graf said that, particularly when he's a patron for mermaids!

I felt really emotional watching the video of her speech outside the High Court it was excellent

I know Keira has been on Mumsnet before so if you are reading this thread Keira, have a hug from me you utterly brave, wonderful woman! Xxx

Janice Turner has posted a link to the judgement (ie to the text of it) on twitter. Anyone who hasn't read it should do so - what it reveals is astonishing. My jaw dropped as I read it and when I got to paragraph 44....well. Paragraphs 58 and 59. Paragraph 60. Paragraph 73. On and on goes the litany of negligence and wilful blindness - tying in with what InvisibleDragon says above about the lack of good faith.

The concluding paragraphs - 134 onwards - are really clear and also devastating.

What I took from the judgement was that the Tavistock has deliberately failed to obtain basic data because what that data would show is so appalling - and that this was obvious to the court. "We find it surprising" in court language means something rather damning....especially when repeated again and again in the context of failure to collect necessary data.

I have to say that the 2 adults I knew before transition were both mentally ill. One severely so. I don't know if transition helped or not, one I haven't seen since & the other wouldn't tell me I don't think, as I am a 'terf' . Dysmorphia like anorexia isn't affirmed - kids aren't told 'yes you are too fat, stop eating' so why is this dysmorphia affirmed rather than exploring & taking time to find the cause?

Dysmorphia like anorexia isn't affirmed - kids aren't told 'yes you are too fat, stop eating' so why is this dysmorphia affirmed rather than exploring & taking time to find the cause?
This

napody

they hinted with talk of experimental procedures that adequate information isnt being given. Therefore does that mean adults can't give informed consent at present too? Given that the 'informed' bit needs adequate accurate information which isn't available? Are they telling adults that long term effects are unclear?

This is a really interesting question and I don't really know the answer.

Adults can give informed consent to experimental treatment, for example in a randomised controlled trial. In a clinical trial, there are very strict ethical procedures to make sure the risks and benefits of any potential treatment, as well as any uncertainty around those, are clearly and accurately presented to the patient. Adults can also consent for their children to take part in clinical trials.

Furthermore, adults can consent to do things that permanently alter their bodies - like getting a tattoo or having cosmetic surgery. However, those procedures are also regulated. An adult can't ask a surgeon to remove a healthy organ or amputate a limb just because they demonstrate that they understand the risks and have signed a consent form. The closet we get to that is probably altruistic organ donation by living donors. Medical ethics doesn't allow doctors to cause harm to patients unless the benefit gained has the potential to outweigh the harm.

To me, puberty blockers for gender dysphoria look like they are harm all the way down: potentially increased suicidality, potential impact on brain development, very high conversion to cross-sex hormones and a lifelong medical regime, infertility and reduced sexual function. The argument in favour was supposed to be that it would prevent distress from going through puberty, but the early evidence from the Tavistock trial indicated increased mental health difficulties, so that argument fell apart.

I think if a new trial was designed, where all the risks of puberty blocker treatment were clearly explained, and where the analysis process and evaluation were clearly defined, it would be possible for parents to consent for their children to be treated with blockers within the context of the trial. But that would rely on clinicians presenting the existing evidence accurately. Which it sadly doesn't seem that we can trust the Tavistock to do.

Incidentally, it's quite hard to run an effective trial for blockers. The number of patients treated per year is small, the number of years you have to wait to measure outcomes is large (probably at least 5, which is a very long follow-up period) and it's not possible to blind participants to the group that are in, because the effects of puberty are obvious.

I wonder what our politicians think about this judgment.

I'm thinking of Lisa Nandy, in particular, with her one trans child constituent. I wonder if she feels this judgment sheds light on this issue. She is always saying we need less heat and more light.