Joe Wicks and his breastfeeding journey

[IHaveAGreyLamp]

Joe Wicks has written in his ‘Wean to 15’ weaning and cookery book about how his wife breastfed their first child. He refers to it as ‘his’ journey- ‘This is just me sharing my experience and journey’. Sorry Joe but what exactly was your breastfeeding journey?

He goes to on preach about how you should just do what’s right for you and your baby, and ignore the opinions of anyone else. Sage advice but I think I would have felt better if it had actually come from his wife (you know, the person of actual experience of breastfeeding and what it’s really like?)

There’s also a lot of ‘we did this’ and ‘we did that’, for example his wife both pumped and breastfed but ‘we found this quite challenging’. Yes Joe I’m sure you did find it quite challenging considering you were neither breastfeeding nor pumping.

I have to say I’ve found myself filled with an irrational rage reading this section of the book. Why couldn’t he have let his wife write this section, to talk about it from a breastfeeding mother’s point of view, rather than a man trying to claim something so inherently biologically female as his? Argh!

Luckily I had only been lent the book to have a look through- I would have been even more annoyed if I’d actually paid £8 to line the pockets of this smug and annoying individual!

Nobody is trying to keep men away from parenthood at all but we have to not indulge this nonsense that men are special for being a dad and doing what they are supposed to do.Joe wicks and his breast feeding journeys is the modern version of dad's "babysitting" their own kids as I'd they are the Messiah it's ridiculous !

@SarahAndQuack

It's nothing to do with 'having it both ways' though, is it?

It's about respecting men as human beings, rather than treating them as fools.

Fathers can't 'join in' with breastfeeding. There is no sensible reason to pretend they can with language about 'our breastfeeding journey'.

No one pretends they can! That's the point, it's so obvious it doesn't need to be said.

But it's not healthy and it's not right to pretend that feeding the baby is the mother's problem, so fathers can completely disappear and wash their hand of the whole thing.

It's not even like breastfeeding is such a walk in the park for many mothers. Mocking parents who need education, or at least guidance, is insulting to both parents and disgusting when you see how many mothers are struggling and making themselves sick because they feel they are failing.

Fucking hate Joe Wicks and his poodle hair. How annoying when his wife and him both cook something and at the end go 'and that right there is wean in 15'. Do fuck off you patronising little twats.
Rant over.

She's probably too busy breastfeeding and pumping to write the book herself!

@Mrsjayy

Nobody is trying to keep men away from parenthood at all but we have to not indulge this nonsense that men are special for being a dad and doing what they are supposed to do.Joe wicks and his breast feeding journeys is the modern version of dad's "babysitting" their own kids as I'd they are the Messiah it's ridiculous !

you are completely missing the point .

It's the opposite of making them "special", it's all about making normal and standard for the father to be involved.

It should be so normal for mothers and fathers to be involved equally that we wouldn't have ridiculous debates like this one.

And we KNOW that fathers cannot breastfeed

But it's not healthy and it's not right to pretend that feeding the baby is the mother's problem, so fathers can completely disappear and wash their hand of the whole thing.

Is there not a middle ground between pretending that men have their own journey through breastfeeding and expecting them to disappear? Can men not be supportive unless they're told that it's all about them?

@PeggyPorschen ... but, but ... of course people are pretending men can 'join in'. You've said it. Joe Wicks has said it. It's, like, all over this thread?

If you suddenly decided you're wrong, feel free to say so, but otherwise, I can't follow your post.

I normally find this sort of thing toe-curling and as many of you point out it wasn't his "breastfeeding journey".

On the other hand I supposed credit is due to him for actually trying to understand it.

My ex was totally unsympathetic about the challenges I had with breastfeeding and couldn't get us onto formula fast enough so I suppose there's progress of a sort in his outlook.

The thing is, I’m not berating him for being an engaged father/partner for supporting his wife in breastfeeding (or any other man for that matter). My DH was absolutely wonderful in supporting me whilst I was breastfeeding our daughter, and also supported me when I started expressing and doing bottle feeds at 5am so I could get some sleep. But there is no way that my DH would claim that it was ‘his breastfeeding journey’. I asked DH what he thought of the wording and he agreed it wasn’t phrased quite right- DH would say we went through breastfeeding together but it was definitely my ‘journey’ as the person actually doing the breastfeeding.

I think my issue is with the wording of the piece, and how the use of ‘me’, ‘my breastfeeding journey’, ‘we found it challenging’ just implies ownership over his wife’s breastfeeding. It’s just making it very much about him and I don’t think breastfeeding can be solely about him, as he is a man and has no first hand experience of it.

I just felt that it was poorly worded

Doesn't surprise me at all.

I cannot abide that smug little man at the best of times.

Men can't breastfeed but can help (with food, holding the baby who wants a human mattress, nappies etc) but they can't do, however much they want to.

It's tough watching someone suffer (poor latch, mastitis, sleep deprivation) when you know you can't actually take over and change anything and if the woman is anything like me, telling you to "stop interfering you don't understand" or "at least 1 of us needs some sleep, go to the spare room".

Plus the whole bonding thing - DH found DC2 tougher to bind with until 6 months when DC2s personality developed - as DC1 was new and exciting first time around...

I'm not being "poor men" but I think reality Vs expectations can be an issue and lead to men being pushed away/withdrawing from parenting "accidentally" and thus becoming "useless" at parenting.

I'm still a bit guilty of this - DC2 is now 2 and I get cross when DH doesn't instantly know what uniform DC1 should be wearing every day for school (Covid means we have a weekly timetable of PE clothes, old clothes for forest school) or interferes with sleep routines/allows too much TV...

It's nothing to do with him navel gazing and joining in or having a special journey - it's all about money! It's quite obvious. His special journey is all the way to the bank!

He has (they have) seen a way to make a few quid and are rubbing their hands together a la Bloody ... whats his name ... the naked bloke ... Jamie bleedin' Oliver!

We'll have Joe Wicks' kids clothing line next, mark my words.

I'm not being "poor men" but I think reality Vs expectations can be an issue and lead to men being pushed away/withdrawing from parenting "accidentally" and thus becoming "useless" at parenting.

I think that's so true.

I really think a lot of the problems do start with this kind of language about 'our journey'. The reality is that life with a newborn is very different for the person who's just had the baby and is breastfeeding, and for the person who ... hasn't. And it's weird. We seem to have gone down a wrong route where men are encouraged to feel they only have two choices: one, be super-involved to the point of acting as if you're the breastfeeding mother, or two, disengage.

We need more proper education for men about how to be genuinely supportive, I think.

[quote SarahAndQuack]@PeggyPorschen ... but, but ... of course people are pretending men can 'join in'. You've said it. Joe Wicks has said it. It's, like, all over this thread?

If you suddenly decided you're wrong, feel free to say so, but otherwise, I can't follow your post.[/quote]
I am not following you?

I have had the same point across the thread, it's obvious I disagree with many posts?

We need more proper education for men about how to be genuinely supportive, I think.

They can have their own separate lessons on how to be support humans.

These insufferable TV and social media numpties, are always writing, and spouting crap, but rubbish seems to always sell,and make big money for them.

Oh, and all the people saying 'we need dads involved bless them' ... can you not see how fucking patronising that is? 'Poor ickle wickle menz, pat thems on the head when they does good'.
I do think we need dads involved.
I don't think they need gold stars or special praise for it, but the sad reality is that there's a lot of women out there with partners who seem spectacularly good at opting out of baby care and breastfeeding gives some men the ultimate get out because it's something they can't do.

DH was a huge support when I was getting breastfeeding established. He picked up lots of slack around the house, brought me snacks, sat with me when I was down and that's how it should be in my opinion. He would get really irritated being told how 'good' he was because as far as he's concerned it's what a hands on dad does. We are equal partners and equal parents.

Much as I find Joe Wicks a bit smug, I'm glad to hear him discussing things as a dad.

Would there be anything wrong with separate lessons, though?

I don't know how common it is, but when we did antenatal classes, quite a lot of the time we were split into two groups. It's sensible.

I just wish more of the groups for the men had been genuinely helpful stuff.

There has to be a balance between acknowledging and not being shite to active fathers & normalizing that behaviour and what Joe Wicks & similar are doing where they take full ownership and mocking mothers who don't do it to his ideals. Between withdraw and ownership beyond their own experiences. We can think both aren't right.

My spouse went through a lot of shit. He went through a lot to help me breastfeed when I got a lot of rude comments about it and had a lot of issues with it. He was accosted in public multiple times while with our kids.

He has his own story about parenting much of which I probably don't know about, wouldn't never entirely understand and would be his to tell. Mine includes being pregnant and/or breastfeeding for a decade almost solid. He can talk about supporting me through that, he can help normalize father's being main carers by talking about it, but having dealt with multiple medical issues related to my pregnancies and breastfeeding, it would be as naff for him to try talk about 'our breastfeeding journey' and it would be for me to talk about 'our knee surgery and physio journey' or 'our journey of being barred from the Boots baby changing area because a staff member doesn't think men should be in there even if no women are in there'.

We can normalize support without having the support taking over. The support should definitely not be looking down on those actually dealing with it.

Even my local Facebook Mums group is banning fathers - instead of being a parenting group. No one is putting their boobs out on facebook, no valid reason whatsoever to keep it "female only, absolutely none.

Except I guess that the admin chooses to have it that way. If you want a parenting group on Facebook, you can run one your own. There is a different in spaces when they're single sex or mixed sex. It doesn't make one better than the other, there is room for both and neither needs a reason to exist other than people want a space that way. I don't need to get my tits out to want to be in a women's group - that would make women's discos or women's book groups a little weird.

@LolaSmiles, I agree we need dads involved. I just don't see how patronising them is the way forward. Or having them pretend they're 'joining in' or having a 'breastfeeding journey' when they're not.

Laiste you are right this is just another thing for him to thing to latch onto he is as deep as a puddle imo

WE need 'proper' education for men on how to be supportive?

How do mothers of sons feel about this i wonder out of interest? Your sons - when they grow up - they're going to need 'proper' education to know how to support their wife after she's had a baby?

Really? Why is the bar set so low for men?

I really think a lot of the problems do start with this kind of language about 'our journey'. The reality is that life with a newborn is very different for the person who's just had the baby and is breastfeeding, and for the person who ... hasn't. And it's weird. We seem to have gone down a wrong route where men are encouraged to feel they only have two choices: one, be super-involved to the point of acting as if you're the breastfeeding mother, or two, disengage.

On a personal note, I really agree and that was a massive shock for me when we had DS - DH was at home for the first eight weeks and I really assumed we'd be totally equal parents, as we'd always been equal in every other way. It was such a shock to find that breastfeeding meant that it just couldn't all be equal and that for the whole time I was exclusively breastfeeding that, for instance, the nights fell so heavily on me. As you said, I felt like I had an idea that either men were crap or they were equal parents from day one (to my shame looking back, I'd assumed that friends who didn't come to things because they didn't want to leave tiny babies must just have rubbish partners), and the impact of biological reality really threw me. It also made me realise how easy it is to then let that turn into a long-term inequality even when biology doesn't require it; for us I do think it was only really shared parental leave that reset things.