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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ooo, Jo Maugham isn't happy...

313 replies

Xanthangum · 23/11/2020 08:23

Jo Maugham (@JolyonMaugham) Tweeted:
"We waited some weeks for the BBC to be ready to cover our legal action to protect the legal rights of trans children. And the piece is up and is quite extraordinary. I'm not going to link to it because it is inaccurate and gives space to a transphobic hate group." twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1330758709140729856?s=20

Which I assume refers to this piece:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55015959

And he says this about LGB Alliance, which feels stupidly for a lawyer libellous: The third point is they have quoted the so-called LGB Alliance - a dark money funded astro-turfed hate group - on the healthcare of trans teenagers. What next? Will the BBC be quoting white supremacists on whether sickle cell anaemia should be treated on the NHS?

OP posts:
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BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 24/11/2020 12:02

@SophocIestheFox

Private insurance doesn’t usually cover gender related stuff anyway

Very much starting to now. My insurers, Aviva, made a big song and dance last year about their newly minted coverage for all aspects of transition related healthcare.

This was in the same week as they told me that they don’t cover anything related to menopause as it’s “not a medical issue”

Let’s just say I was...struck by the contrast. Very struck.

Wow. That’s mad.

Maybe they are banking on few people getting genital surgery as there are so few surgeons actually doing it and most are largely busy with their NHS contracts (or getting close to retirement)?

A private phalloplasty with the sole surgical team performing them reportedly costs £90,000 (3 stage operation).

thisoneday · 24/11/2020 12:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RoyalCorgi · 24/11/2020 12:02

The JCJ thread is brilliant. She made absolute mincemeat of him. (I'm assuming he's blocked her so won't read it.)

I just wish JCJ was a barrister than a philosopher. She would be dynamite in a courtroom.

VulvaPerson · 24/11/2020 12:32

Bar those pushing the utterly weird idea that GD is not a mental health condition and therefore needs no treatment

Generally while simultaneously claiming that the waiting lists for treatment are too long (agreed, for all conditions though, not just this) and that delaying treatment could cause suicide Hmm

Clymene · 24/11/2020 12:36

I suspect the fact that the 'gender affirmative' guidance from BPS puts very many psychologists off providing support to those young people who struggle with gender identity. See letter here.

thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-33/october-2020/freedom-expression-around-diversity-guidelines

Parents and children are therefore stuck between a rock and a hard place and have to wait for GIDS.

I can't imagine how hard it is to be waiting for support.

I'm not sure where Maugham thinks they're going to magic it up from though - it's entirely unrealistic to expect GIDS to ramp up its service to meet an increase in demand of 10,000 in 3 years.

FannyCann · 24/11/2020 12:41

I'm not sure where Maugham thinks they're going to magic it up from though - it's entirely unrealistic to expect GIDS to ramp up its service to meet an increase in demand of 10,000 in 3 years.

Well they could always improve efficiency by halving the appointment times, and the number of appointments and outsource prescribing to GPS....

(For avoidance of doubt that comment comes with a sarcasm alert.)

MaudTheInvincible · 24/11/2020 12:42

Where does he think they'll get the clinicians from to start with. As you say, it's become a scary specialism to have, and many just do not want to get involved.

MaudTheInvincible · 24/11/2020 12:42

Sorry, that was in response to Clymene.

Sexnotgender · 24/11/2020 12:44

@MaudTheInvincible

Where does he think they'll get the clinicians from to start with. As you say, it's become a scary specialism to have, and many just do not want to get involved.
And the ones who are involved, well probably the less said the better!
BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 24/11/2020 12:49

@Clymene

I suspect the fact that the 'gender affirmative' guidance from BPS puts very many psychologists off providing support to those young people who struggle with gender identity. See letter here.

thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-33/october-2020/freedom-expression-around-diversity-guidelines

Parents and children are therefore stuck between a rock and a hard place and have to wait for GIDS.

I can't imagine how hard it is to be waiting for support.

I'm not sure where Maugham thinks they're going to magic it up from though - it's entirely unrealistic to expect GIDS to ramp up its service to meet an increase in demand of 10,000 in 3 years.

GIDS struggle to recruit and retain staff.

There is a FOI somewhere showing how many clinicians have joined and left each year. I’ll go find it.

PenguindreamsofDraco · 24/11/2020 12:55

@thisoneday

This bloke is a laughing stock at the Bar. Clearly his narcissism wasn't satisfied by his dull, but lucrative, tax law practice, and therefore he needs to engage in all this nonsense. And TRA's do love to fawn over a privileged white heterosexual man - he is their favourite type of person.

I have heard on the grapvine that barristers at his set are utterly embarassed by him. The whole point of being a barrister is you are not supposed to be vocal about your political views - you are a mouthpiece for the client. I have had to argue positions I fully disagree with. That is the nature of the beast.

The problem is that because barristers chambers are not companies, you cannot sack anyone. Hopefully he will leave the Bar of his own accord and let those of us who are a bit more sensible try and rescue its reputation.

A mate of mine there said with admirable tact that there is seldom an issue in chambers where JM doesn't feel the rest of them would benefit from his views Grin Grin
BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 24/11/2020 13:10

Table of staff numbers for GIDS from 2012 to 2019

(Lowest number of staff was Jan 2012 - 11
Highest number of staff was April and June 2019 - 112)

(GIDS is green bits only, blue is the London Adult GIC)

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/594583/response/1438621/attach/html/4/SPREADSHEET%2019%2020154%20The%20Number%20of%20People%20Working%20at%20GIC%20GIDS%202012%2019.xlsx.html

The question was ‘ How many people worked at the Charing cross GIC and gender identity
development service in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019?’

So I presume the headcount includes admin staff?

More recent FOI asking for numbers of resignations and reasons for leaving:

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/staff_resignations#outgoing-994099

This one doesn’t include admin staff, as far as I can tell?

SmallPug · 24/11/2020 13:11

I have heard that it’s more than that, as other people have intimated: he has skin in the game

SmallPug · 24/11/2020 13:16

Sorry that was in ref to earlier comments about him doing it as a distraction from fox bashing!

ArabellaScott · 24/11/2020 13:59

Excellent JCJ thread, thank you. This is what we need to do - keep the focus on women and women's rights.

In this case, keep the focus on supporting children to be happy and comfortable, making sure they have the freedom to explore their 'gender identity' if you want to call it that, asking what is causing this dysphoria, looking at co-morbidities, treatment options, stereotypes, homophobia, norms, etc.

I daresay there will be plety of overlap between feminists and gender non-conformist positions.

The lines in the sand are that nobody can change biological sex, this is simple fact. Our legal system needs to acknowledge biological sex differences so that women can protect our needs for single sex spaces and women-specific services.

cantdothisnow1 · 24/11/2020 14:08

I can sympathise with parents of gender dysphoric kids who are struggling to get mental health support for their children. It is similar to autism and mental health services. In many areas there is no pathway as CAMHS do not deal with mental health issues derived from autism either.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 24/11/2020 15:28

@cantdothisnow1

I can sympathise with parents of gender dysphoric kids who are struggling to get mental health support for their children. It is similar to autism and mental health services. In many areas there is no pathway as CAMHS do not deal with mental health issues derived from autism either.
Yes, it’s rubbish for all.

Would be so much better if CAMHS could operate as a kind of sorting area for various in-depth pathways, looking at all comorbidities, rather than being ‘here’s your ASD paperwork and some charity leaflets, off you pop’ ‘we haven’t got the time/right kind of expert clinicians on staff, so you need to wait for adult services’ (happened to foster parents I know, who are caring for teens post SS removal due to CSA!) or ‘wait for gender services, we aren’t specialists’, or just put them in an assessment/holding pattern for self harm/ED until they reach crisis.

I’m not even sure what our local CAMHS realistically DO do, beyond ADHD diagnosis and medication clinics?
I know that locally, ASD diagnosis is supposed to go be via health visitor (to speech and language team) or school referral to Educational Psychologists funded by the LA.
CAMHS will only do assessments for kids who are refusing school (so already in crisis)

Anecdotes - My eldest was diagnosed with ASD/ADHD through CAMHS, my youngest has therapeutic counselling for poor mental health/negative self image but only because her referral was made by the intensive care team to their in-house psychosocial service (psychologists and psychotherapists who are supervised by CAMHS consultant psychiatrists but are located in the children’s hospital specifically to support seriously ill or injured children and their families).
Gender distressed middle got affirmative only (I’d even go as to call it grooming) counselling through the school counsellor (provided by charity Place2Be) which she has now completely refused on her own volition and instead speaks to a member of the student support team who is a qualified youth worker. We’ve found an ex GIDS
psychologist who we may yet use for video counselling but middle actually seems OK at the moment and quite angry about the school counsellor so likelihood of trusting a new person with a similar job title is quite small).

Seems to me that myriad kids are referred to CAMHS but CAMHS has neither the funding, staff nor appropriate ongoing treatment pathways to deal with anything much at all, whereas if it actually worked effectively Gender Distressed kids would greatly benefit from having comorbidities looked at and dealt with first or in parallel to the long assessment that GIDS (was designed to) offer.

Is it more difficult for clinicians to work together if it’s across trusts? If so, is that a funding pot thing or just a lack of familiarity with colleagues?

(just thinking aloud here really, my DD sees consultants in haemotology/oncology, immunology and immunogenetics (and has had appointments at ‘super clinics’ where there are two or more consultants from different specialisms in the same room) as well as accessing support with treatment side effects/ long term effects from the psychosocial team, the physiotherapy team, the play therapy team, the dental team and the dieticians and perhaps miraculously, it all seems to integrate remarkably well! Whereas CAMHS seems to be left to juggle quite disparate conditions largely alone, inevitably dropping almost all the balls, and GIDS may as well be on it’s own island, with ferry services only departing for discharge or endocrinology.

I suppose it’s because I have experienced the absolute best of the NHS for littlest, that contrast of that with CAMHS (eldest) and GIDS (which desisted middle never actually accessed) is so stark.

The differences between the support groups for parents/charity orgs is even more stark, but that’s a different topic.

Anyway, Jolyon’s ‘Fuck the NHS, fund private treatment for gender distressed kids abroad’ seems like a shoddy bit of neo liberal individualism.
Why not campaign for better, more timely treatment for all distressed adolescents, including those who hope to transition?

I know, anorexics, autists, self harmers and fire setters just ain’t fashionable are they? No one is playing YouTube celebrity Donkey Kong on Twitch for them, after all.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/11/2020 15:32

It was an excellent JCJ thread. You could feel her righteous rage.

Escapeplanning · 24/11/2020 15:38

A QC writes: if people are going to break the law then I'm cool about relaxing it or doing away with it.
And if the little women in your life nag you about this, well just tell them to mind their kitchen.

SmallPug · 24/11/2020 15:52

Just looked at the replies and quote tweets on Maugham’s thread and there’s so much clapping and back slapping. Being on here lulls you into a false sense of security that people are more intelligent than they are.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 24/11/2020 15:57

Are we to assume that JM and the magnificent GC Joanna Cherry QC are less close than they once were?

HecatesCats · 24/11/2020 15:58

To be fair JM has blocked countless people who disagree with him, so you'd only expect supporters to retweet. He exists in a bubble basking in woke glory.

OldCrone · 24/11/2020 16:06

NHS appear to be starting to actually make sense on the topic a bit, now that they have stopped the outright lies about blockers being totally safe and reversible

Maugham seems not to have realised that yet.

goodlawproject.org/update/nhs-duty-to-young-people/

In some shocking reports, young people are waiting for up to four years for a first appointment. Not to get what the NHS describes as fully reversible puberty blockers but to begin the process of being assessed for eligibility for puberty blockers.

The current NHS page says:

Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/11/2020 16:35

Maugham seems not to have realised that yet.

I guess because he has blocked everyone who might have let him know.

WouldBeGood · 24/11/2020 16:43

I tried engaging but just got jumped on by the wokesters.

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