Ooo, Jo Maugham isn't happy...

[Xanthangum]

Jo Maugham (@JolyonMaugham) Tweeted:
"We waited some weeks for the BBC to be ready to cover our legal action to protect the legal rights of trans children. And the piece is up and is quite extraordinary. I'm not going to link to it because it is inaccurate and gives space to a transphobic hate group." twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1330758709140729856?s=20

Which I assume refers to this piece:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55015959

And he says this about LGB Alliance, which feels stupidly for a lawyer libellous: The third point is they have quoted the so-called LGB Alliance - a dark money funded astro-turfed hate group - on the healthcare of trans teenagers. What next? Will the BBC be quoting white supremacists on whether sickle cell anaemia should be treated on the NHS?

That’d be Jack Appleby. Damn autocorrect.

@Alethiometrical

It does seem in incredibly poor taste to be berating the currently overwhelmed NHS about not seeing gender questioning children quickly enough, when people are dying because their life-saving cancer treatments have been paused

This.

Although it might be fairer to argue a comparison in terms of different waiting times for mental health issues, rather than comparing a mental health issue (bodily dysphoria) and a physical health issue (cancer).

I just wonder whether any young girl/woman suffering from anorexia - a comparable body dysphoric mental illness - is seen swiftly? I suspect many families seek private health care for anorexia.

But we know that waiting times for NHS mental health care are unsatisfactory in clinical terms.

And given the current pandemic, this case is more than just bad taste (although I get the ironic tone )

Anorexia is much easier to get treatment for - as it is treated by a tier 3 camhs service.

@Aesopfable

however the option to challenge is open to anyone

This is quite obviously NOT the case. Will the Good Law Project fund them all? Who do you think will? The financial barrier is huge.

Yes it is but hypothetically speaking anyone can challenge waiting lists - with financial backing.

@Winesalot

I agree Fraida to quicker access to better mental health care is needed for our children and teens. It is a massive problem that there is a gap when GD is involved.

I also question though if you search specifically for a private clinician that specializes in GD, does that mean you end up with affirming only treatment vs a clinician who specializes in the wider health of children and teens who treats other issues as well?

You could argue that for any condition though!

Our experience has not been that of affirmation but curiosity and questioning also a clear message a managing expectations that this process will take time and it’s not a box ticking exercise in order to get hormonal treatment.

I always go back to the Jack Applebee’s question: ‘What's more likely: That a load of life-long left-leaning LGBT-supporting women have inexplicably and uncharacteristically all suddenly become bigots or that one might be missing something here?’

YES!

When I first started looking into this issue, my husband was totally confused and kept saying 'but this totally goes against your Liberal beliefs' and thought it was so strange that someone like me would be on 'the wrong side'! The more I have gone on and on about it discussed the issue with him, the more he gets it though.

The current insistence that gender dysphoria is not a requirement for transition and that wanting to transition is not a mental health issue sits awkwardly with all the suicide prevention arguments and statistics.

It's not surprising that allies get themselves tied into cognitively dissonant tangles when they're having to claim one moment that it's perfectly normal and the next that it's a suicide-provoking emergency. What with that and having to revise everything they say on the hoof (don't mention born-in-the-wrong-body any more!) it must be exhausting for them. No wonder they get tetchy.

Tier 3 services are only 'easy' to get in some areas - they are locally delivered as I'm sure you're aware. Our provision here is woeful. My child has been waiting on a Tier 3 service for over a year.

And I'm not sure I entirely buy the psychological support angle either. I suspect most children like Reece have already pretty much decided what intervention they are looking for from GIDS and psychological support is just a part of it.

I think I am right in saying that your child has not been formally assessed Fraida? And yet you seem to have decided a very clear pathway of treatment.

I wonder whether the wait actually entrenches views about the right way forward among children? Who are they talking to that is helping them make their minds up about medical treatments?

Our experience has not been that of affirmation but curiosity and questioning also a clear message a managing expectations that this process will take time and it’s not a box ticking exercise in order to get hormonal treatment

And yet you refer to your daughter as your son and being male?

The current insistence that gender dysphoria is not a requirement for transition and that wanting to transition is not a mental health issue sits awkwardly with all the suicide prevention arguments and statistics.

It's a plothole you could drive a truck through.

Totally at odds with the mainstream pro-trans position of twenty years ago too. Back then decent lefty liberal progressive types were insisting that people who'd had or sought this hormonal and surgical treatment should be supported because they'd acquired a very painful and difficult mental health issue that had become resistant to all other treatments.

We were expressly taught that transition was a medical treatment for a psychological disorder.

We could tie ourselves in knots wondering what the hell transition is for if there's no MH condition to treat. But personally I'd rather hold the proponents of the trans narrative accountable for the way they've utterly failed people with dysphoria.

Not everyone with dysphoria adopts a cross-sex identity in self-defence. Those who don't are cast as monstrous bigots who want "trans people" to die.

I don't want them to die. I want them to explain exactly where they get off on throwing dysphorics to the wolves. It's hypocritical - and on a demographic level it's creating sex-based oppression. We dysphorics must follow the male-centric narrative, or else we are the enemy who must be annihilated.

For those on twitter, here is the JCJ take down if you have not seen it. Well worth a read.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1331138795207593984?s=12

Ta for the link, Wines. Nothing like a bit of JCJ to cheer me up. I want to have her word-babies.

JCJ is just glorious when she's angry (how she maintains her sanity is beyond me).

I've said it a few times so apologies for going on, but JM's remainer campaigning enticed people to think he was a good guy, one of us, a leftie fighting the evil right wing brexiters. But he isn't a good guy, he is an opportunistic narcissistic grifter, and unpleasant with it.

One of the (very few) plus sides of his activities on trans issues is that the scales will fall from many people's eyes who thought he is something that he isn't.

The dumbest part of his strategy is he has come to it too late. He should have got on the bandwagon 2 years ago and milked it then. Now there is much more awareness of the dodginess around medicalising gender dysphoric kids, so when the shit hits the fan he can't plead ignorance. He climbed aboard this particular grift in full knowledge that serious and profound damage is being done to children through experimental treatments.

@Clymene

Tier 3 services are only 'easy' to get in some areas - they are locally delivered as I'm sure you're aware. Our provision here is woeful. My child has been waiting on a Tier 3 service for over a year.

And I'm not sure I entirely buy the psychological support angle either. I suspect most children like Reece have already pretty much decided what intervention they are looking for from GIDS and psychological support is just a part of it.

I think I am right in saying that your child has not been formally assessed Fraida? And yet you seem to have decided a very clear pathway of treatment.

I wonder whether the wait actually entrenches views about the right way forward among children? Who are they talking to that is helping them make their minds up about medical treatments?

Tier 3 is nationwide so yes easier to access plus if you chose to go down the private route there are numerous private psychologists, counsellors, therapists that will treat MH issues in kids. GD not so much... one Tier 4 service and no specific GD support in the community plus trying to find reputable private practitioners is nigh on impossible. Personally I’m not happy with GenderGP being the only alternative for a who.e list of reasons I’m sure most of you would agree with.

Not formally assessed you are correct but going through the psychological support and assessment at the moment. I know what the final options ie. medical transition but we are no where near there yet. I’ve read the NHS GD pathway so am aware of what the process and milestones are.

I agree that there are probably many people that see medical transition as the only solution hence the success of the aforementioned GenderGP but certainly for us we recognise the need for proper exploratory therapy in the first instance. We are not proponents for puberty blockers as there are risks involved, would never assume that any form of medication is benign.

The dumbest part of his strategy is he has come to it too late. He should have got on the bandwagon 2 years ago and milked it then. Now there is much more awareness of the dodginess around medicalising gender dysphoric kids, so when the shit hits the fan he can't plead ignorance. He climbed aboard this particular grift in full knowledge that serious and profound damage is being done to children through experimental treatments.

YY. This isn't popular with the public, and this action will only highlight it further.

[quote Winesalot]For those on twitter, here is the JCJ take down if you have not seen it. Well worth a read.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1331138795207593984?s=12[/quote]
She is magnificent

I don't think this is grift, fwiw. I think it's deeply held desperation.

I think the fact that our poor children are in sore need of more effective mental health support is the one issue that almost everyone can agree on. (Bar those pushing the utterly weird idea that GD is not a mental health condition and therefore needs no treatment).

What is driving this deep-seated unhappiness? Where is it coming from? How can we best help? It breaks my heart that so many children are so unhappy and struggling. Let's hope Sunak's new measures for mental health include some decent financial support to enable children to get quicker intervention and far more solid provision. It's absolutely gutting when so many people are encouraged to 'get help' or 'see your GP', when we all know very well that doing so very often leads to a brick wall. (or a cliff edge, depending how you want to frame it).

We should do better.

Off to read the JCJ, now, thanks.

Anorexia is much easier to get treatment for - as it is treated by a tier 3 camhs service.

It may well be a tier 3 service, but it’s certainly not much easier. You may get an initial appointment quickly, but you’ll be offered group CBT therapy. You won’t get the intensive specialised therapy needed.

@ArabellaScott

I don't think this is grift, fwiw. I think it's deeply held desperation.

I think the fact that our poor children are in sore need of more effective mental health support is the one issue that almost everyone can agree on. (Bar those pushing the utterly weird idea that GD is not a mental health condition and therefore needs no treatment).

What is driving this deep-seated unhappiness? Where is it coming from? How can we best help? It breaks my heart that so many children are so unhappy and struggling. Let's hope Sunak's new measures for mental health include some decent financial support to enable children to get quicker intervention and far more solid provision. It's absolutely gutting when so many people are encouraged to 'get help' or 'see your GP', when we all know very well that doing so very often leads to a brick wall. (or a cliff edge, depending how you want to frame it).

We should do better.

Off to read the JCJ, now, thanks.

Absolutely this.

Going private simply isn’t financially viable for many people and most people don’t have private health insurance

Private insurance doesn’t usually cover gender related stuff anyway.

There is only one private gender service for minors in this country and that’s the on the side private practice of a GIDS clinician.

‘Tier 3’ maybe more accessible if you are talking private practice but it’s the same 3 year wait as GIDS. The only thing that makes it easier to access is geography (provided by multiple trusts) whereas GIDS has only two physical locations (and some satellites) because it’s a nationally commissioned service for England and Wales.

Normally you can only access tier 4 after accessing tier 3 and being referred onwards or via A&E crisis admission.
I think this will be the outcome of this kind of court action, GIDS already prefer referrals to come from CAMHS, and if they make that the rule then the waiting list will shrink considerably.

Kids will still be waiting just as long before they are actually seen, of course, but it will all be one wait so there will be no ‘anti trans discrimination’.

Simply referring to private practice or abroad will not work, as a) there is only one part time private clinician to refer to and b) gender services in Europe are just as overloaded anyway (and US services are not equivalent).

I know quite a few kids who have been abroad for NHS funded cancer treatment (Texas at first, until the treatment became available in Germany) but it was clearly evidenced treatment and a stop gap until the NHS got it’s first proton beam therapy centre (now open at The Christie in Manchester).

Kids would need to be diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria BEFORE being being sent anywhere else for treatment, just like we only sent kids who were already diagnosed with certain types of cancer to Germany.

The wait for GIDS is for diagnosis, not treatment (GIDS refers onto two nearby endocrinology teams, so the wait for that bit will be with other kids also waiting for endocrinologist care but isn’t nearly as long).

If trans becomes completely de pathologised, as many activists argue for, there will be no justification for including it under a socialised medical system anyway.

Possibly the best cure for what seems to be a largely iatrogenic condition anyway?

(according to the new Swedish figures).

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

@SophocIestheFox agree. Re the grift - it is JM and other adult hangers on I believe are grifters, not the children. Goodness not the children. They deserve all the proper support they can get, but the funnel JM et al are putting them into runs a high risk of them being spat out sterile, with cognitive limitations and lifelong medical problems.

Private insurance doesn’t usually cover gender related stuff anyway

Very much starting to now. My insurers, Aviva, made a big song and dance last year about their newly minted coverage for all aspects of transition related healthcare.

This was in the same week as they told me that they don’t cover anything related to menopause as it’s “not a medical issue”

Let’s just say I was...struck by the contrast. Very struck.

@HecatesCats

I'm also agog at this white, straight, well educated, able bodied, middle class very privileged dude lecturing us about intersectionality. I"m sorry, but he's a tax lawyer!

So many white middle class dudes happy to call women privileged when it comes to trans rights. Almost as if they've resented women all along 🤔

Yes yes yes to this.

I have removed a fair few of these men now as they are just..anoying and relentless when I talk about womens rights, but I had a fair few middle class straight (usually, a couple were gay, but the rest of the descriprs were always there!) white male friends who jumped on the trans bandwagon and basically used/use it as a way to be outright misogynistic but dress it up as progressive and blast anyone who argued as 'bigots'. The pure hatred they show for female people is astonding, and they kept it relatively well hidden previously, besides the odd attempt at 'but women do it too' whinges and such, that they usually quietly dropped when they were pulled up. They seem very very happy with this 'moverment'. Finally, they can scold women to their hearts content, make men out to be the victims, and they cannot even be told not to as anyone who does that is against 'trans rights' and is clearly a bigot! Amazing, how well that came together for such men. Happy they found a cause to enthusiastically support after all these years. Good to see they are now progressive, instead of only caring about 'mens rights'. They now very much care about a totally unrelated group, amazing! Just a coincidence, of course, that 'supporting' that group means you can outright abuse feminists, and women who disagree. Also their 'support' does not ever seem to go beyond scolding women on social media and such, they don't appear to actually try to help (or listen to) the group they are now so worried about in anyway, besides telling women to 'shut up terf'.

@Duckwit

He's retweeted a follower who is deeply swayed by the asinine observation that if someone wants to attack a woman in changing rooms they don't need trans rights to dress up as a woman to do so.

Ah yes the 'look ladies, blokes are gonna rape you anyway so we might as well just let anyone in anywhere and if you are not comfortable with that well I'm afraid that's just tough shit'.

Great, fucking thanks a lot!

That line of argument gives me so much rage.

Its just stupid too. Try it on any other topic.

'Pedos will attack children anyway. They don't need to pose as teachers and school staff. Might aswell do away with CRB checks because they are pointless, its easy to access children anyway if someone is determined, why would they bother taking time to apply for a job in a school, really? Anyway, most people are not bad people, its awful to mark them as predators and make them prove they aren't, instead of just taking their word for it then acting if they do something wrong, the police can always be called if there is a problem'.

Its just such nonsense.

(I am NOT calling trans people pedos with the above post. Infact, the ped analogy is not about trans people at all, but the arguments used against making women safer. That should be clear, but probably isn't to the monitors. Sure it is to the mods, but putting this anyway just incase)

To be fair many of us are. Proceeding with caution is definitely my MO for my gender questioning child. It’s a myth that all parents of children with possible gender dysphoria are desperate to get to GIDs so we can shove hormones into them. Many of us just want the psychological support

Sorry you are going through this, and yes it does need to be clearer than parents are not all waning to shove blockers down their kids throats like smarties and such. Thats the picture given by the likes of mermaids, yeah, but its not the general respose, or I would really doubt it is. I hope you manage to access some psychological support soon. Psychological support seems thin on the ground around this topic unfortunately, as it becomes more and more pushed that 'therapy fr trans kids is conversion therapy so it is Very Bad'. NHS appear to be starting to actually make sense on the topic a bit, now that they have stopped the outright lies about blockers being totally safe and reversible, hopefully, the rest will follow and we will see some sense soon. I do not think its fair to make out parents are all thrilled and pushing fo transition asap. I think many of those who are 'happy' have been kind of guilted into it, by groups such as mermaids as they have been told their child will kill themselves if not instantly affirmed, and such. I find it fucking vile tbh, that such 'support groups' behave in that way, and also, anecdotally, appear to actually totally drop parents who refuse to go down the medicalisation pathway.

One of my close friends went through hell with a gender questioning child. Child had never shown any discomfort with her body before. Started watching a load of FtM youtube stuff, and reading reddit and stuff. And bang, We know the rest. Luckily my friend declined the schools reccomendation to contact mermaids (as she was quite knowledgable on the topic) and while she was fine using 'new name', that was about all she did differently. Binders and such were not allowed, she talked to her daughter about the harms binders ca cause, daughter was under the impression they were also safe, and even if they weren't it didn't matter that much as once she was old enough she could get that part of herself removed anyway Was all very very sad, and sudden. Luckily, she is happy in herself now. She is also now openly lesbian. Which is, I think, behind a hell of a lot of these sudden 'I am a transman' events. Could have been really bad though, if she had gone to mermaids and fell for all the manipulation. Schools really really need to stop recommending that group. The main problem she found, was apparently trying to find a therapist who did NOT reccomend social transition immediately and that. Who was not angling for 'affirmation'. She found one eventually, but apparently its 'best practise' to not even bother talking a bout possible other causes for discomfort with 'gender', which is fucking terrifying.

Went off on a tangent a bit there. But yes, I definitely disagree with the assumption some seem to make that parents are all thrilled and waing appointments for drygs and that. I imagine many are reluctant but want to support their child through it (like my fiend), some wll be unsure, and end up in the cluthces of mermaids, and only a minority will be instantly thrilled, affirmation and loads of fuss made, followed by binders, drugs, etc. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to be in that situation, especially if you are brand new to the topic and do not know about mermaids, and believe the stuff they say. I canot imagine the terror of being told (by a group recommended by many professionals too, so has an air of authority) my child will kill themselves if I do not put them on a medical pathway immedately. The stress and pain my friend, and her child went through because of this all is just heartbreaking, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. So no, the painting of parents as hugely enthusiastic is not exactly accurate IMO. Some will be, but I suspect thats a minority.