Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

I don’t think Self ID will lead to women as a group ceasing to exist or to an increase in violent crime against women.

If the word woman becomes something based on feelings and self determination, then how will anyone know who they are talking about when discussing sex based crimes/violence/ discrimination.

Don't you think its worrying that the gender pay gap can be completely hidden by males in the work place self identifying then being recorded under female for data gathering purposes ?

Or the fact that a board consisting entirely of males can in fact be considered diverse enough should thise males ID as women?

@Whatwouldscullydo

If the word woman becomes something based on feelings and self determination, then how will anyone know who they are talking about when discussing sex based crimes/violence/ discrimination.

Don't you think its worrying that the gender pay gap can be completely hidden by males in the work place self identifying then being recorded under female for data gathering purposes ?

That is already happening.

Unless I know :(

Which is why it surprises me that people can still claim it doesn't make any difference.

MichelleofzeResistance
then they are actively colluding in, supporting and part of those behaviours and must take responsibility for doing so

Excellent post, and especially this bit at the end. I used to be a Labour member, an Amnesty donor, etc. However, as things stand, their apparent willingness to take women's votes and support for granted, despite their obvious contempt for us and our rights utterly sickens me. Labour et al are behaving like abusive partners and I will not bow down to it, pretend it's not happening, or that I can't see it. I will hold them to account for this. I will not 'be kind' and don't need 'educating'.

I don't usually engage with the posters who come here to tell us that we're wrong, but, like a PP, I admire the patience of those that are willing to do so.

Yes @Escapeplanning

I was just such an arrivist a few years ago. I didn't have an agenda, I was new to the whole trans rights debate and wanted to know what so many here were so anti. I was flamed, exhorted to do some reading, pointed towards a few threads, other platforms to read, laws to ponder etc etc.

Unlike others here I took a step back and decided to do that reading. I decided to look at if/why many women posting here were well ahead of me in their knowledge. And now I wonder why/how many of them have been driven away, banned, furious, silenced here, simply gone, by the relentless pestering of those who don't like what they said?

Those relentlessly acadmic posters Duckwit mentions harangued me, intimidated me (some, long gone, were quite unpleasant), but those who were genuinely intent on making themselves understood (now sadly also mostly gone) did just that. And now we have a new mass of every day women who wouldn't consider themselves to be academic, radical or political discussing the same issues, developments and political machinations.

This is far from an echo chamber. Look at how much time we give to those who come to derail, how often we find a new poster who, like me, needs time (one just yesterday whose name I have unforgivably forgotten) to work out what they really think about both sides of this - that's women's rights and trans rights as separate issues and then the elephant in the room, the mooted crossover of thise rights.

Yes it gets heated. Yes posters who have been here a while use phrases, short hand that those with an agenda misuse and deliberatley weaponise (my apologies for handing the word becunted). But we carry on discussing, evidencing, refuting the weird and wonderful ways some choose to try and undermine the GC female perspective here.

I do think that self Id could make it difficult for women's problems to be recognised and acted upon

I do think that self I'd could lead to women be8ng pushed out of sport and the boardroom, becoming reluctant to seek medical help, becoming less likely to participative fully in life . I appreciate that anyone who thinks a woman would be reluctant to get a smear test if they can't guaretee a female professional is considered too bigoted to count.

I do think that anyone who thinks men won't abuse the freedom to access previously sex separated spaces is deluded beyond belief. Think of all the lovely priests, the selfless volunteers sports coaches, the timid school caretaker. Bad men do deliberately exploit any Avenue they can. We can't close the. All but we should not open up new routes

I use the word could because self Id does not have to mean that gender replaces sex.

There could be more male prisoners in a women’s prison than women.

@turnitonagain

I don’t think Self ID will lead to women as a group ceasing to exist or to an increase in violent crime against women.

Have a long think about female sport.... that's a group that is already ceasing to exist.

I didn't have an agenda, I was new to the whole trans rights debate and wanted to know what so many here were so anti. I was flamed, exhorted to do some reading, pointed towards a few threads, other platforms to read, laws to ponder etc etc
Unlike others here I took a step back and decided to do that reading. I decided to look at if/why many women posting here were well ahead of me in their knowledge. And now I wonder why/how many of them have been driven away, banned, furious, silenced here, simply gone, by the relentless pestering of those who don't like what they said?

Those relentlessly acadmic posters Duckwit mentions harangued me, intimidated me (some, long gone, were quite unpleasant), but those who were genuinely intent on making themselves understood (now sadly also mostly gone) did just that. And now we have a new mass of every day women who wouldn't consider themselves to be academic, radical or political discussing the same issues, developments and political machinations

This is far from an echo chamber

You contradict yourself.
You say "this is far from an echo chamber" but are also saying you came here "with no agenda" and presumably all new to the discussion - in your own words you were flamed, harangued, people insistent on "making themselves understood" (sounds a bit brainwashy!) especially when "pointed to things to read" and other "platforms."
This I'm interested in - when you say pointed to things to read, were they all from a "GC angle?" or did you read "other side" angle too?
I also do lots of reading, but for example not only reading on here, and therefore GC angles, maybe say a trans person's point of view in published online articles.
It is an echo chamber if you don't get a balanced view of both "sides."

"Question to longest - how do you define gender identity without resorting to the 'girl brain in boy body' idea (now rejected as an explanation by the trans charities) or narrow socially imposed gender stereotypes?"

You see this is where I sort of run out of steam. It's not about what I believe - gender identity doesn't mean anything very concrete at all to me and I share a lot of your views that it stems from a damaging idea of what it means to be a woman or a man. I really find the messages put to children worrying, as do you. But when someone, an adult human, says that they are trans and their need to have their gender identity recognised, I sort of feel it's down to me to accept that and I think the law, and the current social contract, supports that.

Like I said, it's a facet of human dignity/personal autonomy. I don't personally have a problem with changing in front of a man (there's beach-style changing at my swimming pool at the moment) or in a man performing gynaecological procedures on me, but that doesn't mean I reject female privacy and dignity as a concept. Ultimately all your logical arguments on this thread have hit the same point "why don't you want people with penises in places where women are vulnerable?" "we just don't". Which is fair enough isn't it? But it's the same thing imo - "why is it important? what does it mean?" are ultimately questions with no answer but that doesn't mean you've proved the other side wrong.

It's been said that trans rights are asking for something more than other human rights in seeking third party recognition but I don't see it like that. It's all very well saying "it's fine by me if people quietly get on with their lives" but that isn't how rights and equality work. Gay rights require people to accept gay marriage as valid, regardless of anyone's personal conception of whether it should or shouldn't be. Freedom of religion requires people to respect the sanctity of another's belief (including that they need sex segregated spaces, as it happens) without needing people to actually believe in that person's God.

That's why it seems to me that there are rights on both sides that are ultimately irreconcilable - but that doesn't mean that an acceptable balance is impossible.

@turnitonagain

I don’t think Self ID will lead to women as a group ceasing to exist or to an increase in violent crime against women.

If any man can become legally female just by signing a form, you don't think this will have any affect on women as a group? You might want to think about this a little more.

How do women as a group exist, if 'woman' just means 'anyone who says they are a woman', and that person could be either male or female?

And can you say exactly what you mean by 'trans' rights?

maybe say a trans person's point of view in published online articles.

Whilst I might be occasionally interested in a trans persons point of view, depending if an article is well written as opposed to the usual 'die in a grease fire', their point of view with regard to whether they should have women's sex based rights makes no difference to anything. These rights, enshrined in law, are there to protect women. Not men. However they identify. A female 'uniform' does not make one a woman.

You contradict yourself. Oh do explain how... oh! look!

You say "this is far from an echo chamber" but are also saying you came here "with no agenda" and presumably all new to the discussion - in your own words you were flamed, harangued, people insistent on "making themselves understood" (sounds a bit brainwashy!) especially when "pointed to things to read" and other "platforms." Yes! Some longer term posters were then, as they are now, initially annoyed at my protestations, and then took time to point me to information I hadn't previously seen. Not brainwashing, information sharing.

Or is it always brainwashing when someone you disagree with does it?

This I'm interested in - when you say pointed to things to read, were they all from a "GC angle?" or did you read "other side" angle too? I think I covered that. But it included Stonewall and simialr; teh EA 2010, local authority misinterpretations; actual laws etc

I also do lots of reading, but for example not only reading on here, and therefore GC angles, maybe say a trans person's point of view in published online articles. I read simialr, and speak to trans freinds and acquantances. Yes, as I say here many times, I do know some trans and non binary people. Have done for over 30 years.

I came here defending them, wondering why so many so called feminists coudln't accept transwomen as women. They have, after all, been sharing female spaces for longer than I have been alive. I couldn't see why so many seemingly intelligent women objected.

And yes, I have discussed the arguments made with some of my trans friends, one of who posts here occasionally! Those discussions have been heated, protracted and occasionally very animated! But we all agree that there has been an aggressive attack made on the rights of women and that is is not acceptable to ignore that!

It is an echo chamber if you don't get a balanced view of both "sides." I am reading your posts, responding to them aren't I? I tend to do that in good faith, assuming the same from you and all others who post here in a similar vein!

And, as I said, I have similar discussions with people who may or may not agree with me on any part of the same topic!

I wish I had read that back and corrected the mispers.... pologies!

Fuck!

I’ve said elsewhere on FWR my opinion. I think a lot of trans/gender NC is a trend among younger people that most will outgrow without undergoing medical treatment. The small number of genuinely gender dysmorphic people are, in my opinion, quite often emotionally and mentally fragile in other ways. Attacking them seems cruel, they are genuinely on the fringe of society no matter that a few of them have glam surgery and makeup and get attention on social media.

who is attacking dysmporphic people? Many posters have said before that they have trans family members and that they have every sympathy with people suffering from dysphoria. Ironically, many of the high profile dysphoria sufferers recognise exactly what the activists seek to deny - they recognise their biology and women's rights to single sex spaces. Fionne Orlander, a transwoman is campaigning for third spaces and many on FWR support her!

Do you understand this trend that you describe is exactly our problem - we think the children will grow out of it as well!! But there are major concerns over a concerted push by certain large organisations to get children on the road to transition and drugs at an earlier stage. I think it was GIDS that reported that almost every single child that had puberty blockers continued onto full cross sex hormones and likely surgery. Social transition also funnels children onto that narrow path that few manage to get off.

We know that most children will desist if left alone and not pushed to declare their trans identity and have it affirmed by trusted adults who should know better!!

Samphire

'Becunted' is a good old MN term.

Considering that cervix havers, menstruators, birthing people and vulva owners are all terribly fashionable and woke terms, (somehow this apparently goes alongside a supposed view of reducing people to their biology is wrong, but not when you do it to females) I have no idea why the sudden pearl clutching about becunted.

Historically when you piss off an oppressed group by using offensive and demeaning terms for them, that group frequently takes on those terms and uses them themselves. Robustly, defiantly, in in the English way, thoroughly taking the piss using the intended insult. Multiple examples from multiple groups.

But I thought we were all supposed to celebrate selecting our own identity and choosing our own labels? (Or again is that for people other than females?)

Frankly at the moment where women are barely allowed to have anything at all, and everything must be inclusive of males, becunted is one of the very few ways to define themselves that has not yet been appropriated and colonised.

who is attacking dysmporphic people? Many posters have said before that they have trans family members and that they have every sympathy with people suffering from dysphoria

Not forgetting that dysphoria is no longer required to be considered trans

In fact uts considered phobic to assume all trans people hate their bodies.

Yes! Some longer term posters were then, as they are now, initially annoyed at my protestations, and then took time to point me to information I hadn't previously seen. Not brainwashing, information sharing

You're missing my point.
"pointing you to information."
OK, yes, fine.
As I said if you read my post again, I said it's good to read both sides.
Do you read both sides though? For example, articles written by trans people, or from their viewpoint?
Or just ones you've been pushed towards from a GC angle?

I am reading your posts, responding to them aren't I

Not me! I mean, articles in general. Not just GC ones.

Or just from GC people har

No idea what that last line was supposed to be

I read simialr, and speak to trans freinds and acquantances. Yes, as I say here many times, I do know some trans and non binary people. Have done for over 30 yea

*Sorry just seen you answered that
Although not sure what the fact you have some trans friends has to do with anything.

I remember my horror when I enthusiastically recommended the programme Balderdash to my dad. Yes, the next programme was GG reclaiming the word cunt!