Purity signalling - musical authors withdraw from Graham Norton's show to promote their musical, because JK Rowling was also being interviewed about her new children's book

[StandWitch]

twitter.com/marlowandmoss/status/1327594966814748673

theversion.co/2020/11/03/j-k-rowling-to-discuss-the-ickabog-with-graham-norton-on-radio-2/

J.K. Rowling is to guest on Graham Norton’s Radio 2 show, to talk about her new book The Ickabog, a new fairy tale about a mythical monster, a kingdom in peril and an adventure that will test two children’s bravery.

The author will join Graham on this Saturday morning show from 10am on 14 November, 2020.

Also on the programme...

Lastly, Graham talks to the writers of SIX The Musical, Toby Marlow and Lucy Moss, which is scheduled to reopen in the West End with a series of socially distanced performances at The Lyric Theatre soon.

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what is wrong with these people?

Fine if you like the music and not everything has to have a message but how can this be empowering?

I totally get that if you haven't seen the show, but that's kind of the point of it - it's about how they've been painted as one dimensional characters (by HVIII and history in general!) known only for their relationship to their husband, but are reclaiming their voices to tell their stories their way away from their identity only as 'six wives'. Again I understand that isn't clear without hearing / seeing it or knowing the premise, but hopefully that makes more sense.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Fine if you like the music and not everything has to have a message but how can this be empowering?

I totally get that if you haven't seen the show, but that's kind of the point of it - it's about how they've been painted as one dimensional characters (by HVIII and history in general!) known only for their relationship to their husband, but are reclaiming their voices to tell their stories their way away from their identity only as 'six wives'. Again I understand that isn't clear without hearing / seeing it or knowing the premise, but hopefully that makes more sense.

But, with all due respect, that's just a series of meaningless platitudes. No-one has painted the wives of Henry VIII as one-dimensional characters; the reality of history is that there is an awful lot of it, and most people will barely have more than a superficial exposure to even the most important historical events. Around four million people lived in Tudor England; how many of them have you ever heard of by name?

As for reclaiming their voices, the musical really isn't doing that, because we are talking about people who are long, long dead, and have no longer any voices to reclaim. What the musical is doing, is imposing messages upon historical characters, ones which the individuals themselves may or may not have agreed with. It's not empowering to anyone in any way to do this.

I totally get that if you haven't seen the show, but that's kind of the point of it - it's about how they've been painted as one dimensional characters (by HVIII and history in general!) known only for their relationship to their husband, but are reclaiming their voices to tell their stories their way away from their identity only as 'six wives'. Again I understand that isn't clear without hearing / seeing it or knowing the premise, but hopefully that makes more sense.

That doesn't make a lot of sense though. You might as well say that if Boris kicked out Dom Cummings because his acolytes were rude about his girlfriend then we should somehow rewrite Boris Johnson in terms of his various wives/affairs.

Marina Wheeler might be a distinguished lawyer but she was not Mayor of London.

If Boris changed our entire legal system to align it with his libido and fathering skills, presenting himself as the epitome of fatherhood and the women he cheats on as lucky to have been impregnated by him - then I would want to hear it from a different perspective, yes. I'd want someone to bring up that he criticised single mothers whilst shagging around and creating single parent families in his wake - that's the equivalence to Henry and Six. It's adding an angle, not a rewrite.

I think SIX is brilliant. It doesn't touch on trans issues, of course not - it's historical, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't touch on a lot of important, feminist points that persist today - from preference for sons, to girls being seduced and married off as teenagers, to the way stories are often told as women essentially fighting for a desirable man and then driving him to violence. The people here commenting on it without actually seeing it or listening to it are doing the same as people commenting on JKR's essay without reading it.

For example, Anne of Cleaves - history says she tricked Henry into marriage by having a portrait more attractive than she really was... poor, manipulative, ugly Anne. For her section, SIX has a song about beauty standards actually killing you and then makes you think/realise that she was by far the luckiest wife and had a nice life without the limitations of the royal husband that dominated and ruined the lives of the other five. He looks a bit of a pillock for trying to take her as a wife after only seeing a painting. Almost everyone comes out thinking that if you had to choose to be one of the wives, you would be her - so instead of rejection, you see her getting off lightly.

I'm not a historian, I didn't even study history at school but I'll honestly say that Wolf Hall and SIX have both changed the way I think of Henry 8th - added context and dimensions - which is what art is for. TBH it wasn't that I agreed with his portrayal, I just hadn't really ever given him much thought, but I know that now I will have talking points for when my DD is learning to recite his wives by the way they died.

The writers have been ridiculous though, I'm not defending them.

I'm not a historian, I didn't even study history at school but I'll honestly say that Wolf Hall and SIX have both changed the way I think of Henry 8th - added context and dimensions - which is what art is for. TBH it wasn't that I agreed with his portrayal, I just hadn't really ever given him much thought, but I know that now I will have talking points for when my DD is learning to recite his wives by the way they died.

As I've said, I have studied this period of history and I'm not keen on Wolf Hall either, though I think it's very a well constructed novel. As you say, it's art. Anyone has the right to interpret history, but one interpretation is not the be all and end all and other people have different takes.

Working, ageism is disgusting - why fall into it, as a feminist, regardless of your views? How crass.

I think you have to recognise that SIX is seeing a story nearly 500 years ago through a modern, intersectional feminist, genderist lens. And that's fine and can provide good messages for girls and an appreciation of history, but there's an element of historical revisionism and that's not really my cup of tea. Yes I am commenting on it without seeing it, as I don't really have any desire to.

I'm a hypocrite though, as I enjoyed the Tudors

Well seeing as the whole premise is imagine the six wives of Henry VIII came together to form a girl band I don't think the authors were going for historical accuracy.

I didn't say it was. All I said was that it's not my thing.

I didn't say they were, or should be, I mean. They're entitled to their take, as is anyone else.

I've not read the whole thread so this might have been mentioned, but I remembered one of the actors in Six posting a gender critical tweet a while back. Obviously this was smugly reported to TM on Twitter
mobile.twitter.com/TheTobyMarlow/status/1279701891358904320

Poor little halfwits, they needed the exposure far more than she did 🤣
Bless...

Wow. Did she continue in the role?

I've heard Moss interviewed and she came out with some completely inane gender bollocks, and one of the lead actors a couple of years ago said she identified as non binary (no idea of pronouns but very clearly female) and I think posted some "fuck off terfs" type tweet. So I've never been particularly warm to them.

I think she's still technically in role.

I am horrified about this Twitter mob culture punishing people by trying to get them sacked or re-educating them for “wrongthink”. Why can’t we as a society try to have careful and nuanced conversations about difficult matters?

I just looked back at her tweets around the same time and she put out a statement apologising and saying she was growing and learning. Which is why I suspect she's still in a job.

I bet she's just learned to keep her mouth shut. No one really views being wokescolded as "growing and learning". I can reel off a list of people who later "disappointed" trans activists when they made further unpalatable comments when the TRAs thought they had learned their lesson. JKR and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie being two.

I'm just listening to GN now and I thought JKR came across really well and Lady Glenconner sounds great fun, I think I'll put her book ob my Christmas list!
Its a shame the creators of Six chose to not go on there it would have been a good platform for them. I enjoyed the stage show but its a shame they've taken this stance which as others have said goes completely at odds with the message of Six.

I agree Eresh. I think she did what she thought she had to do to be able to continue working. Like many others unfortunately.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I bet she's just learned to keep her mouth shut. No one really views being wokescolded as "growing and learning". I can reel off a list of people who later "disappointed" trans activists when they made further unpalatable comments when the TRAs thought they had learned their lesson. JKR and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie being two.

And of course martina Navratilova who went and educated herself as instructed and came back 10 times terfier

And of course Rosie Duffield.

What's going on here is really obvious, though. TRAs and their supporters know that they don't have a leg to stand on, either morally or rationally. Their argument (which seems to amount to "trans women are women, trans men are men, non binary identities are valid") falls apart under scrutiny. The only way they can win is by making sure that their view is never subjected to scrutiny, and that anyone who might argue against it is too frightened to speak out.

And of course martina Navratilova who went and educated herself as instructed and came back 10 times terfier

YY, exactly

LetsSplashMummy

I think you would really enjoy the Six Wives of Henry VIII by Alison Weir. I've been listening to the Six songs via youtube this morning and I wouldn't be surprised if they'd also used it as a resource.

It really is very good.

www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Wives-Henry-VIII/dp/0099523620?tag=mumsnetforu03-21