Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

Naming it an illness / disorder / condition doesn't stop it happening in humans and in animals.

You are going to have to explain that sentence.

Connie has already mentioned abortion rights and equal pay. Can you please explain how these are womens rights issues? Why is abortion a feminist issue? What is the basis for pay discrimination towards women? Since being a woman has nothing to do with biology, please do not make any reference to female biology in your answers and also explain how these issues affect TW and why.

This. Connie, please answer this. Throw away the Twitter slogans that, let's be honest, are 'signals' rather than answers. These questions really get at the bare bones of OP's question: "how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centering women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen."

womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/21/biological-sex-is-not-a-spectrum-there-are-only-two-sexes-in-humans-with-claire-graham/ Claire Graham interviewed on intersex conditions.

@tinofshortbread What is a woman? The answer to that question is at the heart of all of these conversations.

[quote JoodyBlue]@tinofshortbread What is a woman? The answer to that question is at the heart of all of these conversations.[/quote]
Exactly. It seems that some feminists think a woman is defined by her biology. I thought we fought against that? Well, I did. I'm older than a lot of you.

What do you mean by defined in that sentence?

Determined, fixed, clearly marked out as.

@JellyFishSquish

Connie has already mentioned abortion rights and equal pay. Can you please explain how these are womens rights issues? Why is abortion a feminist issue? What is the basis for pay discrimination towards women? Since being a woman has nothing to do with biology, please do not make any reference to female biology in your answers and also explain how these issues affect TW and why.

This. Connie, please answer this. Throw away the Twitter slogans that, let's be honest, are 'signals' rather than answers. These questions really get at the bare bones of OP's question: "how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centering women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen."

Hello! Of course!

So I believe everyone can be victims of misogyny. Masculinity is not superior to Femininity. From sexual harassment, abuse, the right to their own bodies. I believe that feminism should target those areas where misogyny thrives. We cannot empower ourselves when there's "one" way to be a woman.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/19/valerie-jackson-trans-women-misogyny-feminism - This article puts it better than I could.

So I believe everyone can be victims of misogyny.

Can males be victims of misogyny?

What do you mean by defined in that sentence?

This is an excellent question.

Determined? Yes, the fact of being a woman is determined by biology.

I would guess that what Joswis fought against was biology as destiny; biology predetermining a life of drudgery and ritualised submission and sexual performance.

We fight against that too.

In my experience, most feminists, including myself, don't think in nearly so much detail about trans women in comparison to those on the mumsnet feminism board. And feminism means different things to different people. For me it is about women's rights and equality, it's not about worrying if that trans woman is actually a pervert. Perhaps I am just not educated about it, but honestly it seems unlikely to be a common occurrence for predatory men to become transgender. I want to live my life, given an equal chance to others, without any assumptions about who I am based on my gender or what I look like. So I feel it is my duty to do the same for others, including transgender men and women.

@Joswis

I've been a feminist all of my adult life, therefore a very long time. I believe feminism is not just for women, but simply to ensure equal rights for everyone. Because we live in a patriarchal society, a lot of the time the focus US on women, because we get a worse deal. But it can equally support men, in relation to rape or child custody for example.

I see sex/gender as a continuum. I know most of society doesn't, but that is my pov. Therefore, it's possible to be at one end or the other (man or woman) but that there is a lot of room between the two polar opposites. IMO, most of us are somewhere between the two. I'm nearer the 'woman' end, some are nearer the middle.

Gender queer people are still people. They need equal rights like the rest of us. It isn't my business what someone's genitalia is or the way they chose to identify.

If someone respects my choices about my life, I don't want to interfere with their choices. If they wish to identify as a woman and respect me/my choices, I accept them in female spaces. I can't reverse that statement because I don't identify as a man. But it would be nice if people who choose to identify as men were welcome in men's spaces.

If someone originally had male physiology, has had surgery, is taking hormones, making a difficult transition, facing ongoing social and emotional hostility, they are likely in the women's toilet to pee, NOT to enforce their 'maleness' on women. CIS men do that everyday, with wolf whistles, sexism, sexual assault, rape et al. They don't need to wear a dress to do it.

Well then, by your definition of feminism, you're clearly not a feminist. Feminism is about females fighting for their own rights. You say its about equal rights. In the USA, there are many transwomen who now are able to take women’s sports scholarships for entry into University as they are stronger at sport than biological women. Those women who fail to win scholarships are frequently from deprived backgrounds, are frequently Black women and have no other way of getting into University. So males, who identify as women, beat them again and again having a huge impact on life chances. Is that what you call equality? Is that fair? Are you OK with males self identifying as females, then taking the scholarships, prizes, awards set up specifically for females to ensure those very same females are able to have equality with males?

'Exactly. It seems that some feminists think a woman is defined by her biology. I thought we fought against that? Well, I did. I'm older than a lot of you.'

We fought to, and continue to fight against, women and girls being oppressed, restricted, discriminated against, because of our biology.

The claim that feminists have always fought to have it biology ignored, it to remove it entirely from anything referencing woman, girl or female, is simply not true.

Feminists have always had a lot to say about abortion, childbirth, biology. We've also had a lot to say about restrictions imposed on us due to our sex. You can't do this because you're a woman and women are not clever enough to do this. That's gender, or sex role if you prefer.

I think you know all this really though don't you.

If the categories of woman, girl, female mean any human who says they are one then feminism is entirely redundant and there is no way to measure what happens to women girls females around the world, and therefore no way to find out if they are being oppressed/ discriminated against or not.

I suppose that's one way of gaining 'equality'.

You have no idea how old any of us are. Why do people always say stuff like that? It's words on a screen. Comments like that are at best patronising and at worst silencing. I know better than you silly girls. Stop talking.

So I believe everyone can be victims of misogyny. Masculinity is not superior to Femininity. From sexual harassment, abuse, the right to their own bodies. I believe that feminism should target those areas where misogyny thrives. We cannot empower ourselves when there's "one" way to be a woman.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/19/valerie-jackson-trans-women-misogyny-feminism - This article puts it better than I could.

That article starts by describing a transwoman being arrested and then forced to strip. It continues: 'Jackson was a victim of misogyny.'

If this had been a transman instead of a transwoman, would you consider this also to be misogyny? If not, why not? What do you think misogyny is?

@Imicola

In my experience, most feminists, including myself, don't think in nearly so much detail about trans women in comparison to those on the mumsnet feminism board. And feminism means different things to different people. For me it is about women's rights and equality, it's not about worrying if that trans woman is actually a pervert. Perhaps I am just not educated about it, but honestly it seems unlikely to be a common occurrence for predatory men to become transgender. I want to live my life, given an equal chance to others, without any assumptions about who I am based on my gender or what I look like. So I feel it is my duty to do the same for others, including transgender men and women.

I think you're very naive here. There are many instances of predatory men self declaring as female - that doesn’t mean that all transwomen are sexual predators. However, transwomen commit sexual crimes in the same proportion of men. transcrimeuk.com/

I feel there's a misunderstanding of the word misogyny on this thread.

I also feel the counter arguments are becoming akin to "all lives matter," entirely missing and dismissing the whole point and need for feminism.

Exactly. It seems that some feminists think a woman is defined by her biology. I thought we fought against that? Well, I did. I'm older than a lot of you.

I remember suffering from this confusion about biological essentialism when I was a young woman (probably same age as you, at a guess) so I think I can answer you.

I am a woman, insofar as I have female reproductive biology. So far, so definitional.

However, it's a contingent fact about my identity as a person. I am first and foremost a person, who just happens to have female biology.

However, others have, historically and currently, weaponised this contingent fact about me to deny me and people like me rights. Having female reproductive biology is the marker societies use to spot one group of people they feel like shitting on from a great height. Therefore to try to strip away reference to my femaleness from the discussion strips me of the language I need to identify myself as a member of a group historically and currently shat upon politically.

Additionally, there are facets of my reproductive function which need to be taken into account in offering me equal access to society on a fair basis.

Take for e.g. the equal pay claim I fought a few years back. This didn't happen because my employer decided (evil capitalist cackle) to deliberately pay all those expressing a "feminine gender identity" less because... Instead, it was a classic case of cock up rather than conspiracy. Long pay scales, plus automatic annual marks of "doing okay" while on maternity leave, plus performance related pay meant that 10 years into the job, doing it just as efficiently as the man next to you, if you'd had a couple of periods of maternity leave, you'd be paid less than him.

Now of course one can argue about shared maternity/paternity leave as a route to fixing this, and I think that's a good one in an ideal society. But even then, it remains a fact that women need maternity leave in a way that men do not need paternity leave. Women need maternity leave because giving birth places a huge demand on a woman's body and she needs time to recover.

Biology.

It matters.

The trick is to recognise biology doesn't determine our worth as human beings, but does impact on our lives in ways that have to be taken into account if women (the sort of human being that produces the large immobile gametes, that gestates the young, that gives birth to them, that is capable of breast feeding them) are to be enabled to take a fair and equal role in society.

We cannot empower ourselves when there's "one" way to be a woman.

What do you mean by "one" in this sentence?

Are you saying females can't empower themselves unless males are also empowered?

Perhaps I am just not educated about it, but honestly it seems unlikely to be a common occurrence for predatory men to become transgender.

But if you agree that a man is a woman if he says he is, how do you tell the difference between a man who is transgender (genuinely believes he is a woman, or genuinely wants to be a woman) and a man who is saying he is transgender for other reasons?

The GRA reforms which were proposed would have meant that any man could be legally recognised as a woman just by making a declaration (which could not be proven to be false - how do you prove or disprove what someone claims to think?) It is unlikely that no predatory men would take advantage of such a system.

'Becoming transgender' under such a system would mean just signing a form. No physical changes, no change of name, no medical diagnosis. Nothing. Just 'I am a woman'.

Plus NAMALT, and NATWALT.

That's obvious. And not the point.

Why aren't we endlessly debating that TM should go to a Male prison or are an issue in male toilets?

🤔

You have no idea how old any of us are. Why do people always say stuff like that? It's words on a screen. Comments like that are at best patronising and at worst silencing. I know better than you silly girls. Stop talking.

It makes a change from telling us we're old and irrelevant, I suppose.

@soontobe60 sure, call me naive If you want - I get that it happens. In my opinion this is a really difficult issue with no easy solution. The need for women's rights shouldn't negate any other (far more marginalised) groups rights or ability to live their life integrated within society.

To me, saying I’m a woman because of my biology isn’t biological essentialism. It’s just that the word woman has always been used as a word to denote someone with that biology.

I really don’t get the biological essentialism argument at all.

Thank you for answering, Connie. But I still feel these questions:
"Can you please explain how these are womens rights issues? Why is abortion a feminist issue? What is the basis for pay discrimination towards women?"

...are not answered by these statements:
"So I believe everyone can be victims of misogyny. Masculinity is not superior to Femininity. From sexual harassment, abuse, the right to their own bodies. I believe that feminism should target those areas where misogyny thrives. We cannot empower ourselves when there's "one" way to be a woman."

The questions were about how to frame women's rights. How abortion rights are women's rights if TW are women, for instance. You mention misogyny instead. Of course, not everyone can be victims of misogyny, which is hatred against women (gyny). But I get that you are suggesting that TW suffer misogynistic attacks too. I think not, and that if we were going to class it as such (to be kind?) then it would be an entirely different type of attack than the women-type of misogyny. I am working hard here, but to me that makes it...not really misogyny, right?