Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

I believe that trans women are women, but not female. Because I think that gender is a social contruct that is imposed on female people rather than a natural state of being. And I think that its the conflation of gender and sex (ie woman and female as synonyms) that have got us into this mess.

So I'd be happy with a trans woman at ...say, a woman's book club, but too often we use woman when we mean female, and we should be clearer where we mean gender and where we mean sex.

On the bathroom issue, female people have specific toileting requirements and vulnerabilities. The only sensible solution is to change men facilities to gender neutral and women's facilities to female only. For sports, it makes more sense for a split along sex-based lines where physical sex differences are an issue, but then I wouldnt have a problem with a trans woman on a women;s darts team.

I've lived in 3 different cultures. Yes, 'woman' is different in each one.

Due to cancer, I have no female reproductive tissue of any type left. If being a woman is biology, I'm no longer a woman, I'm a husk .

Yes, gender is a social construct. Masculine at one end of the continuum, feminine at the other.

I have been a feminist for 45 years. I've worked on a lesbian helpline and for rape crisis. I've supported mostly cis women but some gender queer women too. Pain is pain. It isn't located in the genitals.

As is 'male'. Did you know there are two acceptable versions of maleness in traditional Chinese culture? When and Wu.

@VulvaPerson

Oh dear, reading back, I seem to have skipped the part where butches like me are suddenly going to be kicked out of the womens in droves. We had that argument not long ago, and the person who was concered for us butches, did not actually seem to concerned with us butches at all (unless butches agreed with his view, of course) and was, oddly indeed, instead using us as a weird way to say men should be able to use female areas. Because of course, being butch is no different to being male. Same as the racist as fuck 'a transwoman is a woman as much as a black woman is' that gets chucked around a lot

Stone Butch Blues was the epiphany if my lifetime. It was like a lightbulb went on for me.

@Kit19

is it ever possible to discuss this without resoring to toilets?

toilets are the least of my worries frankly

im far more concerned about the legal definition of women being redefined to include men which at a stroke takes away everything designed to be for women, about women and to improve women's lives

Im also concerned at how the word woman is being erased from issues that can only be about female people - pregnancy, cervical cancer, endometriosis while men reamins firmly and without exception front and centre in campaigns about prostate cancer

if trans inclusionary feminsim is about equality between men and women, why is there no push back on the fact that it's quite obvious that the same sexism still remains - women are being shoved over while men havent had to budge an inch

So many great posts on here but this sums it up perfectly for me. We have so much to lose and I'm astonished that more people can not see this.

im sorry for your experience Joswis but Im an infertile woman and unable to reproduce, however I in no way see that as meaning Im not a woman. the ability to give birth only belongs to one sex - female. The fact that I cannto give birth because my biology is fucked means that I have a different set of issues to deal with but they're all rooted in my female biology.

Female biology isn't restricted to the reproductive organs. And no one is calling you a 'husk'.

Pain is pain that's true. Feminism is about the pain of female people though. Not everyone. We'll never get anywhere if we make it about everyone as males are always prioritised.

And if sex and gender are about internal feelings then many many many females who are experiencing pain are not women, or girls, or possibly even female. So even when their pain is related to being born and growing up with a female body, their pain cannot be linked to being female....

Sorry to post and run when I started this thread. I thought I was going to have a bit of free time this morning. A common female fantasy, I believe!

I'm still running but wanted to grab a look and quickly say Thanks, everyone.

Looks like lots of fascinating and thoughtful responses. And Conniethesensible, sorry to have lured you here and not replied, thanks for your thoughts and I will reply as soon as I can actually sit down and type. Catch you later, everyone. I'm looking forward to reading everything.

Not a bid for sympathy Kit19. I am secure in my identity. I don't care what others think, or indeed, have anything invested in worrying about if I'm a real woman or not. Now, I DO worry about if I'm a real teacher or not but...

Most cultures invest a LOT in maintaining gender rules. You can get silicone breast implants via a plastic surgeon with no psychologist needed. But if a woman wants a mastectomy to a flat chest, she has to be assessed and judged mentally stable. Which of the 2 is more dangerous to health?

You are still woman in every cell of your body, joswis.

Many years ago my mum was about to undergo surgery, not knowing if she would wake up having had a complete hysterectomy. Even though she knew her family was complete, she begged her gyne to avoid removing her uterus if at all possible. It made the surgery far more complex than needed, but the gyne (another woman) followed dm's wishes.

Many years later, when I myself was going through menopause, dm told me that her perspective has changed completely. She said that at the time her sense of self, her sense of being a woman, of femininity, her whole identity, was bound up in motherhood. She had been oblivious until much later that other aspects of herself - survivor, entrepreneur, educator, businesswoman - were just as important to her sense of identity.

I think that feminism is a shifting abstract idea that changes/adapts over time (With the core idea being that all people are of equal worth). I don’t place women’s worth above men’s, I see them as being of equal value, but with the society we live in not reflecting that. (Likewise across race, ability, religion, age etc.)

I see trans people as a largely discriminated against group that should be included when seeing people as equals.

Inclusive language doesn't make me feel robbed of my identity as a woman, it makes me feel like I’m making an adjustment to be inclusive to another discriminated against group.

I can understand the argument that (physical) mixed gender spaces like communal bathrooms making some women uncomfortable, but I don't think that’s the fault of trans people...

@lazylinguist

I see sex/gender as a continuum. I know most of society doesn't, but that is my pov.

It's not a pov. Sex is categorically not a continuum. As for gender... can you define what 'gender' actually means using examples that aren't simply stereotypes which only apply to some women or some men and are therefore of no use in categorising anyone as a particular gender or sex?

Sex IS a continuum. There are far more variations on XX and XY than we are taught. Of course, we label those that don't fit those 2 neat little categories 'disorders' but they are naturally occurring, therefore they are normal human biology.

I have a friend that is non-standard. She identifies as female but is in fact a blend.

I am secure in my identity. I don't care what others think, or indeed, have anything invested in worrying about if I'm a real woman or not

And yet you are the only one who raised the point about surgery not changing you from being female. This is actually entirely consistent with the perspective that trans surgery does not change a male either.

I expect we will move on to the next contradiction?

The female sex class is defined the same for every single species on the planet: an organism that had, should have, or used to have the capability to produce large gametes for the purposes of sexual reproduction. This is true whether you're a human, a cat, a clown fish, whatever. Do you think that female cats stop being female when they have their uteruses removed? Do you think they have a concept of gender identity? Hopefully the answer to both these question is no, so I have no idea why you think this argument is any more relevent to female humans. I don't mean to be cruel, I'm sorry for your experiences, but this "if women are a sex class then how come infertile women are women?" argument is honestly on a par with "if humans evolved from monkeys then how are there still monkeys?" It's nonsense, and 5 seconds thought should be enough for anyone to see that.

@Joswis

Not a bid for sympathy Kit19. I am secure in my identity. I don't care what others think, or indeed, have anything invested in worrying about if I'm a real woman or not. Now, I DO worry about if I'm a real teacher or not but...

Most cultures invest a LOT in maintaining gender rules. You can get silicone breast implants via a plastic surgeon with no psychologist needed. But if a woman wants a mastectomy to a flat chest, she has to be assessed and judged mentally stable. Which of the 2 is more dangerous to health?

yes they do which is why I'm baffled that instead of sayng to boys "its fine to wear a dress and make up and like dolls" and to girls "of course wearing trousers and liking football and climbing trees" doesnt make you a boy, our society seems determined to tell these children that they are in fact the opposite sex

that to me is the epitome of what is wrong - gender is a social construct forced up on us and instead of trying to break those constructs, we have the likes of Alex Drummond telling us they are a "widening the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman" because they were a dress and make up. Would it not be so much better if Alex was in fact triumphantly widening the bandwitdth of what it means to be a man? to break down the stereotype of what it is to be a man? instead the dresses/heels/make up = woman is endlessly reinforced

Ok, we've now got to male and female intersex conditions. It's all being rolled out today 🤣

Joswis

"Sex IS a continuum. There are far more variations on XX and XY than we are taught. Of course, we label those that don't fit those 2 neat little categories 'disorders' but they are naturally occurring, therefore they are normal human biology."

I know of plenty of people with DSDs who find it profoundly offensive to be described as other than female or male as a result of their medical conditions.

DSDs are sex specific. They are part of the binary. Variations within sexes, not points on a spectrum.

Sex is not a spectrum.

I don't feel 'robbed of my identity as a woman' whatever that means. I am a woman.

What I feel robbed of is the ability to describe any situations that happen to women and girls as a group because they are female.

There are billions of. Um. Becunted people in the world. We do need words to describe our category.

I just saw the most mangled report on BBC news about Peter Sutcliffe who apparently killed X people and people were worried to go out at night but also men would be thoughtful and cross the road if walking behind a woman etc....

Peter Sutcliffe didn't go after victims who had a certain infernal gender identity. How could he have? You can't see it.

I believe that trans women are women, but not female. Because I think that gender is a social contruct that is imposed on female people rather than a natural state of being. And I think that its the conflation of gender and sex (ie woman and female as synonyms) that have got us into this mess

Is this something you’ve always believed? That women are “anyone, male or female, who behaves in a feminine fashion”?

How do you square that with all the women who hate femininity, but still call themselves women?

strange how sympathy never ever seems to extend to doing what intersex people have asked for repeatedly which is not to be dragged into this as some kind of gotcha

Because they want to fit in Kit. They're working in the system we have now.

If there is all this argument about clothing and labelling, imagine the almighty uproar if those that are most vulnerable tried to tell us gender is false!

My bad Escapeplanning, not 'disorders', 'conditions'. It's normal human variation. Naming it an illness / disorder / condition doesn't stop it happening in humans and in animals.

Sex IS a continuum. There are far more variations on XX and XY than we are taught

What variations are those? There are “variations” where cells haven’t divided properly and you may get an absence or duplication, but X and Y are the only sex genes.

Sex IS a continuum. There are far more variations on XX and XY than we are taught.

Doesn't it basically boil down to presence or absence of a Y chromosome? Besides, people are born with extra digits, missing digits, fused digits - doesn't mean that the number of finger or toes on a human limb lies on a spectrum between 0-8.

I'll be backing you up if any bugger tries kicking butch women out of the loos, VulvaPerson.

There's been times when other women have inadvertently made me feel uncomfortable in the loos. Usually in pubs and clubs, when often there'd be women huddled round the mirrors, touching up make-up, talking about which men they fancied, doing the stereotypical women-in-pub-loos thing. Very friendly, usually, but I struggled to join in and felt other, lesser, weird, wrong - because their behaviour reminded me that I myself failed to meet those stereotypical standards.

The inclusion of human females of a variety of presentations actually makes the space feel a lot less hostile and excluding to me. I like it when there's someone to share a baffled quirk of the eyebrow with when there's a group of chatty make-up fixers in there. It reminds me that I'm human too.

And anyway, these toilet arguments always avoid setting out the question clearly: would you rather share your loo with females who look like men, or with males who look like men? But if we're that concise there's no argument to divert us from more important topics (like: who the hell are these dickheads trying to persuade us that butches are the abominable Other? What purpose does sowing this discord serve?). So we have to wade through the obfuscation and the circular reasoning and the logical fallacies every time.

Apologies, I should add, if I misunderstood/misrepresented the way you categorize, please feel free to clarify your meaning.