advice on a male teacher at DDs school please

[happydappy2]

My DD in year 9 used to have a wonderful female PE teacher who went on mat leave & might not come back. Currently a young male teacher has taken over and the girls feel uncomfortable when he watches them doing PE. One of them has looked at his social media & seen who he is following on instagram....lots of female body builders who pose in skimpy barely there bikinis (as is normal for body builders) but also some young women who pose in a very sexualised way in barely there bikinis....lots of boobs & bum on show. (Not topless but good as.) One girl has asked me if that is appropriate for a teacher & I'm struggling with how I feel about this. I would have thought all teachers have to have squeaky clean social media or set it to private. I've asked the headmaster for his views but wondered what others thought-am I over reacting or is this not really OK?

My assumption was that if the OP was genuinely concerned about safeguarding she'd have spoken to the girls and gently encouraged them to describe the teacher's behaviour, what exactly was 'creepy' about him. There could be a real safeguarding concern there.

The fact that she's totally ignored this and immediately emailed the head about Instagram indicates to me a focus on penalising the teacher, not exploring the potentially genuine and valid concerns if the girls who have come to her.

If she thought there was a genuine safeguarding threat she be focussed on that, not on 'reporting' a few swimsuit images on Instagram.

It's her judgemental and petty reporting and absolute lack of interest in exploring whether the teacher has actually behaved inappropriately (a much bigger concern) that has raised criticism and doubts over her motivation.

@happydappy2

mistresslggi unsurprisingly the children aren't with me now, so I can't ask them what exactly makes them feel uncomfortable. The point of the thread was asking if it was appropriate for a PE teacher to follow girls who post pictures in barely there bikinis, posing in an overly sexual way (not just body builders-read the OP peeps.) showing lots of boobs & bums. That is the point of the thread.

So just to confirm, you reported a teacher to their head based on children feeling uncomfortable but you don’t know how or why?! Christ, they must have seen you coming.

But by the sounds of it (and I'm willing to be told I'm wrong) OP only told the head about the SM aspect and asked for his views on that. The only action taken is a reminder to tighten up privacy settings.

OP is focused on how unprofessional and inappropriate the teacher's social media behaviour is. She didn't even ask about how to deal with the girls feeling uncomfortable and how help them cope with their feelings.

@PearPickingPorky

And yes, welcome to all the FWR newbies.

Your point being what exactly?

Middle ground Dido. Middle ground.

You don't assume that either he is a weirdo or he isn't.

You keep an open mind and leave the for door open for your DD to tell you if he does do anything. Anything which again could be brushed off 'oh he's just being friendly!' or whatever.

It worries me that so many people can't see any middle ground between 'sack the perve' and 'she fancies him and is a gossiping bitch'.

When it comes to children and people in authority you need to be careful. Keep communication lines open.

Because CSA starts with the subtle. And the children who aren't given the tools (talk to me) or are laughed at (you just fancy him!) or are dismissed (obviously he looks at you he's your PE teacher) are the ones who do not tell if anything starts to escalate. And by then. He's got them, hasn't he.

I can see zero harm in saying to DD. Thanks for telling me. Does sound a bit unusual. Let me know if anything else happens. Keep an eye out for your mates.

Who is harmed by that? No one.

Who is helped? Well if things are dodgy, children are helped.

When I was a girl we were taught to 'laugh off' inappropriate behaviour from men. That it was just how it was and not a big deal. Throw into the mix an authority figure, and parents who essentially say, I don't want to hear it. And that's go time for the small (ish) number of men who are predatory.

The situations where boys and female teachers are involved have a slightly different dynamic, that the boy should consider himself lucky. That also acts as a hard stop on talking to anyone who might be able to help.

He's an idiot for a) using his real name for social media and b) having it unlocked.
The fact he can't see having a feed full of scantily clad young women when he works with young women is disturbing itself.

Any teachers I know don't use their traceable name. I have an old mate who is a teacher at my children's secondary. I haven't got him on social as I don't think it would be fair to him having to think about having a parent in his personal feed - pops up in the people you may know under a name he wouldn't be found under.

@happydappy2

Checking a persons social media profile is NOT stalking

Yes it is.

You didn’t even bother to ask the girls why they felt he was creepy.

'20:55Noideawottodo

Anyway, he teaches PE
That's enough for 99% of mumsnetters to want him sacked anyway.'

I don't understand.

I mean I don't make up 1% but my girls swimming teacher was awesome and also DD2 martial arts was all men teaching and they were lovely.

Their child school PE teacher tbh was a bit of a dick- only really wanted to teach football and clear preference for the boys (primary school). Also failed to stop doing bullying. And (and this is just me!) drove his sports car overly fast and very loud revving when the receptions were on the loose.... He was just a common or garden dick though.

Why do you think Mumsnetters don't like male sports teachers? Not heard that one before. Interested.

Can you expand on this at all?

Middle ground Dido. Middle ground

I see very little middle ground here. I see several posts more than happy to accept "makes them feel uncomfortable" as sufficient to damn him. I see posts suggesting that asking (or rather "demanding") what he has actually been doing are unreasonable.

All sorts could be happening here - from the early stirrings of the girl’s’ sexuality ( feelings from shame, embarrassment to excitement) to the guy being a pedo and all things in between.
Bottom line is teacher is idiot at best

• he needs SM to be private. OPneeds discussion with her Dd & support re her feelings & HT needs to ensure teacher SM private & monitor him - to protect all parties & be ready to take action if discomfort continues

@NiceGerbil

Middle ground Dido. Middle ground.

You don't assume that either he is a weirdo or he isn't.

You keep an open mind and leave the for door open for your DD to tell you if he does do anything. Anything which again could be brushed off 'oh he's just being friendly!' or whatever.

It worries me that so many people can't see any middle ground between 'sack the perve' and 'she fancies him and is a gossiping bitch'.

When it comes to children and people in authority you need to be careful. Keep communication lines open.

Because CSA starts with the subtle. And the children who aren't given the tools (talk to me) or are laughed at (you just fancy him!) or are dismissed (obviously he looks at you he's your PE teacher) are the ones who do not tell if anything starts to escalate. And by then. He's got them, hasn't he.

I can see zero harm in saying to DD. Thanks for telling me. Does sound a bit unusual. Let me know if anything else happens. Keep an eye out for your mates.

Who is harmed by that? No one.

Who is helped? Well if things are dodgy, children are helped.

When I was a girl we were taught to 'laugh off' inappropriate behaviour from men. That it was just how it was and not a big deal. Throw into the mix an authority figure, and parents who essentially say, I don't want to hear it. And that's go time for the small (ish) number of men who are predatory.

The situations where boys and female teachers are involved have a slightly different dynamic, that the boy should consider himself lucky. That also acts as a hard stop on talking to anyone who might be able to help.

It doesn't sound like the OP did what you suggest or even considered it.

TBH, it's quite a good ,measured and reasonable way to deal with things like this.

I can see zero harm in saying to DD. Thanks for telling me. Does sound a bit unusual. Let me know if anything else happens. Keep an eye out for your mates

Who is harmed by that? No one

What exactly was "a bit unusual" ? All the OP has said is he was watching them at PE.

What you suggest would be reasonable if the OP herself were behaving reasonably.

It's very very hard for girls and women to justify creep radar.

Because... There aren't words for it that don't make you sound silly and trivial. This happened in metoo at my work. A couple of men were asking me what the 'wrong' way to look at a woman was. In the end they said 'we can't even look at a woman any more' and stomped off. Following on from various conversations about 'rape rape' and casting couch and etc I had pretty much had it on the topic by that point! They were nice blokes as well.

Anyway.

DD comes home and says the way Mr X looks at me makes me feel uncomfortable. And some of the other girls have said it as well.

What follow up questions even are there? For a child in year 9. It is what it says on the tin. She has told you how she feels. Pressing for 'evidence' will achieve what, exactly. I still can't describe how it is that the way creepy men look at you creeps you out, and I'm nearly 50

It wasn’t the op’s DD.

It’s clear the OP has an agenda. She wants her dd to have a female PE teacher.

That may not be possible due to teaching loads and staffing issues.

Her own DD hasn’t raised this with her some other child has.

The op hasn’t even mentioned telling thr parents of the child concerned. Surely if you had a safeguarding concern you’d talk to the parents of the child ?

@NiceGerbil

20:44RealityNotEssentialism

'Okay, now that I would say was inappropriate. Very clearly so.'

Why?
He never did anything or said anything. He didn't leer.
Why is that so obviously inappropriate? I mean the man needs to get to the staff room or canteen...

???

Why is it inappropriate? Because he teaches in a totally different building and always seems to be walking past when the girls are getting changed. Why would he need to be in that corridor? Hanging around where girls are getting changed is quite obviously inappropriate and different to what is described here. This man is the PE teacher whereas you’re describing someone who doesn’t teach PE suddenly appearing every time you’re in your PE kit. Can you not see the difference?

He's a PE teacher. He was probably watching them intently as part of his job. This thread is awful.

This is off topic but I remember when I was at university in a northern city which was very ethnically diverse. A girl in my halls of residence was waiting for a taxi to take her to the station one evening and she turned to me and said ‘you know what? I’d feel much safer if the taxi-drivers in this city were white’. I just stared at her open-mouthed. The point is that one person’s discomfort with another can come from any number of reasons and not all are valid. It is absolutely okay to interrogate the reasons why someone claims they feel creeped out by someone because it’s really not always a psychic intuition that they are a bad person. The problem in this case is that there is absolutely nothing beyond a feeling. I just don’t understand how anyone can think that this is something that requires action to be taken against the teacher.

Oh and I’ve been around on FWR for years in case anyone thinks I’m a newbie (just because I disagree).

@NiceGerbil

It's very very hard for girls and women to justify creep radar.

Because... There aren't words for it that don't make you sound silly and trivial. This happened in metoo at my work. A couple of men were asking me what the 'wrong' way to look at a woman was. In the end they said 'we can't even look at a woman any more' and stomped off. Following on from various conversations about 'rape rape' and casting couch and etc I had pretty much had it on the topic by that point! They were nice blokes as well.

Anyway.

DD comes home and says the way Mr X looks at me makes me feel uncomfortable. And some of the other girls have said it as well.

What follow up questions even are there? For a child in year 9. It is what it says on the tin. She has told you how she feels. Pressing for 'evidence' will achieve what, exactly. I still can't describe how it is that the way creepy men look at you creeps you out, and I'm nearly 50

I think language is also important. I think "I'm uncomfortable with how mr x looks at me/us during PE" is different from "I'm uncomfortable with mr x watching me/us during PE".

I can't even fully explain why,maybe because watching is interchangeable with supervising .

However you're right, it's so hard to explain or quantify "the look", but somehow we all (or most of us ) know exactly what it is,and more importantly how it feels.

I wonder what kind of responses and advice OP would've got if she only mentioned the girls feeling uncomfortable.

I have a feeling the SM thing muddied the waters both ways.

@NiceGerbil

It's very very hard for girls and women to justify creep radar.

Because... There aren't words for it that don't make you sound silly and trivial. This happened in metoo at my work. A couple of men were asking me what the 'wrong' way to look at a woman was. In the end they said 'we can't even look at a woman any more' and stomped off. Following on from various conversations about 'rape rape' and casting couch and etc I had pretty much had it on the topic by that point! They were nice blokes as well.

Anyway.

DD comes home and says the way Mr X looks at me makes me feel uncomfortable. And some of the other girls have said it as well.

What follow up questions even are there? For a child in year 9. It is what it says on the tin. She has told you how she feels. Pressing for 'evidence' will achieve what, exactly. I still can't describe how it is that the way creepy men look at you creeps you out, and I'm nearly 50

Exactly non verbal communication is exactly that - non verbal. You know when someone stands too close and you aren't sure of their intentions. You know when someone's eyes linger on you, but it's hard to pin down. It's crucially important that girls develop these instincts.

Yes, sometimes you may have a feeling and of course it’s hard to specify why you feel uncomfortable. But in those situations you can’t do anything really beyond avoiding being on your own with that person. Which there is no reason for any of these girls to do. What you can’t do is to threaten other people’s jobs due to someone’s vague intuition. To do that, there needs to be tangible evidence beyond that the PE teacher is looking when his pupils do sport.

You know when someone stands too close and you aren't sure of their intentions. You know when someone's eyes linger on you, but it's hard to pin down.
It's crucially important that girls develop these instincts.

Totally agree. Very difficult to explain exactly why you know that there's something wrong with a man, but once you've seen the patterns, you know not to ignore them.

I think language is also important.
I think "I'm uncomfortable with how mr x looks at me/us during PE" is different from "I'm uncomfortable with mr x watching me/us during PE".
I can't even fully explain why,maybe because watching is interchangeable with supervising .
However you're right, it's so hard to explain or quantify "the look", but somehow we all (or most of us ) know exactly what it is,and more importantly how it feels.
I wonder what kind of responses and advice OP would've got if she only mentioned the girls feeling uncomfortable.

I have a feeling the SM thing muddied the waters both ways

I agree with you.

I think the social media thing matters though because it gives a bit of background to how the OP is viewing things. What stands out to me is that if it's a genuine safeguarding concern then I'd be reporting that to the dedicated safeguarding leader, not leaving the main issue to fester and talk to the head about not liking the legal content of his social media.

For what it's it's worth I'd say if any child was genuinely uncomfortable with a member of staff then they should mention it to their parent, even if they can't quite articulate why. The parent should listen, make a mental note and be willing to raise it if and when required. They shouldn't do any leading or start whipping up more story, intentionally or otherwise.

If a member of staff has behaved inappropriately or unprofessionally then that does need reporting, investigating and following up.

I’m a teacher myself (not PE though) and I’m looking at this two ways. One from the teachers perspective and one from the girls and so this needs to be approached gently.

Firstly, PE teachers of the opposite sex are always open to these types of comments and gossip, and if you found someone creepy would you go looking at their social media? This could just be gossip that could damage this teachers reputation and be harmful to his career. After all, what is he meant to do, not look at his students during the lesson? He does need to be careful with his social media though and ensure it’s private. Just because he follows body builders and skimpy looking girls doesn’t mean anything. I’m a female teacher and I have good looking guys on my SM, doesn’t mean I’m being creepy with my male students though!

Second perspective: if the girls genuinely do feel uncomfortable for whatever reason then of course this does need to be followed up in case there is something to this. The school could address this by ensuring there are both male and female teachers for PE.

I'm not saying I think from the info the OP has given that there is something wrong with the teacher, other than he needs to lock down his social media, and he really should know that. However it's really uncomfortable reading all these comments about teenage girls creating drama and being manipulative. All the comments about there needing to be more evidence than just a feeling, so many sexual harassment/assault cases come down to victims word against attacker and they are not believed. Feels like teenage girls are being set up to fail :(