advice on a male teacher at DDs school please

[happydappy2]

My DD in year 9 used to have a wonderful female PE teacher who went on mat leave & might not come back. Currently a young male teacher has taken over and the girls feel uncomfortable when he watches them doing PE. One of them has looked at his social media & seen who he is following on instagram....lots of female body builders who pose in skimpy barely there bikinis (as is normal for body builders) but also some young women who pose in a very sexualised way in barely there bikinis....lots of boobs & bum on show. (Not topless but good as.) One girl has asked me if that is appropriate for a teacher & I'm struggling with how I feel about this. I would have thought all teachers have to have squeaky clean social media or set it to private. I've asked the headmaster for his views but wondered what others thought-am I over reacting or is this not really OK?

'Teenage girls can be very bitchy and nasty if their behaviour is allowed to go unchecked. Teach your kid to not make nasty insinuations about people nor to join in when her friends do.'

Case in point

This is why do much CSA goes unreported and unpunished. Historically. Now? Don't know.

May seem like a leap but the attitudes in this thread are really eye opening, as a primer in how awful shit goes on for years and even if reported. Still goes on for years.

Not related to chap in op obv. Where my previous comment stands.

There is no evidence this man has done anything. The op hasn’t even asked the girls into what it is that makes them uncomfortable. Or she has and it’s nothing. Because if she had any evidence she wouldn’t be worrying about him following fitness models on insta.

[quote NiceGerbil]I read this the other day, this thread reminded me of it.

Now this is totally aside from this teacher and the op. But. Time and time again, men who are abusive get away with it.

There is nothing wrong with saying to a child listen to your instincts. Thank you for telling me. Nothing to be done, but do tell me if anything happens.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

We have the idea being raised now that yr 9 children, in particular girls, are an absolute liability when it comes to stuff like this. That they must fancy him. Or, they just have taken against him. That they are in the wrong for looking at his public social media. Etc etc

Give children this message and they consume it.

Anyway. This is a harrowing read. But I think it's worth reading as this stuff does happen and I think saying children should stfu and you could ruin someone's life, and adults saying well. You know what children that are are like. It is not a good thing.

There is a space in the middle.

Anyway. Do NOT read if CSA is v upsetting for you.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/ztdfudx91d/the-boarding-school-monster-who-always-walked-free[/quote]
I agree with most of your post.
I do think it's wrong that the girls checked his SM profiles up and checked who he followed. That's why it's good practice to have everything private and be hard to search. Because no matter what I,or others think it does happen and it happens often.

That being said, my 9 year old asked me to google her teacher and then look at pictures. She could do it herself I guess,but since she asked me I told her it's inappropriate, not ok and how would she feel if her teachers were looking for pictures of her . Should I have just let her do it ?

Well, this is a strange thread.

I find it alarming to see people demanding the OP explains exactly what the man is doing that is making the girls feel uncomfortable and if they can't justify it then they are lying/actually fancy the teacher/are trying to ruin his career.

As women, we know when we are being made to feel uncomfortable by men. It's a skill we have to learn: Recognising The Male Gaze. Yes, possibly, some women and girls will get it wrong and feel uncomfortable with a totally nice and innocent man, but there is a Male Gaze, and yes it can feel threatening, even of the man didn't"do anything" explicitor criminal .

However.

This is a man, a teacher, who SHOULD be very aware from his training that a) teenage girls feel uncomfortable anyway, b) teenage girls feel especially uncomfortable during PE (hence so many girls stop doing any exercise in their early-mid teens), c) teenage girls feel especially uncomfortable doing PE with males, d) knowing all the above, as a trained teacher, he should be aware that his behaviour has to be beyond reproach, and yet e) he's publicly 'liking' sexualised images of scantily-clad females on a visible SM account.

He sounds fucking stupid, quite frankly.

OP, you were right to raise this with the Head.

He's probably blown it with this group of girls and lost their trust now. His own fault.

The adults (teachers) should be aware that children will look. And keep it locked down.

Some have said these children are in the wrong for even looking.

Searching people you know or meet is pretty standard these days surely? I CBA personally but I know my parents have googled all their neighbours. Fuck knows why! But it happens all the time

And children are often very interested/ nosy about their teachers.

If he's young, wouldn't this have been a part of his training?

And yes, welcome to all the FWR newbies.

[quote NiceGerbil]I read this the other day, this thread reminded me of it.

Now this is totally aside from this teacher and the op. But. Time and time again, men who are abusive get away with it.

There is nothing wrong with saying to a child listen to your instincts. Thank you for telling me. Nothing to be done, but do tell me if anything happens.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

We have the idea being raised now that yr 9 children, in particular girls, are an absolute liability when it comes to stuff like this. That they must fancy him. Or, they just have taken against him. That they are in the wrong for looking at his public social media. Etc etc

Give children this message and they consume it.

Anyway. This is a harrowing read. But I think it's worth reading as this stuff does happen and I think saying children should stfu and you could ruin someone's life, and adults saying well. You know what children that are are like. It is not a good thing.

There is a space in the middle.

Anyway. Do NOT read if CSA is v upsetting for you.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/ztdfudx91d/the-boarding-school-monster-who-always-walked-free[/quote]
That is indeed harrowing and a really tragic horrible story. I don’t think it can in any way be likened to this though. Nobody has disclosed anything that can come close to being seen as abusive. I of course think that children should be believed if they disclose abuse. I think this is very different to the current situation.

I think another thing is relevant which is that predators target individuals and rely on them being too ashamed to tell. It would be fairly unusual for a predator to aim their attention on the entire class.

As a pp said, I think the issue is that they just feel uncomfortable with a male PE teacher.

@ReneeRol

It's good that the headteacher has warned the teachers to lock down their SM accounts to protect themselves from troublemaking, cyberstalking students.

You shouldn't be encouraging your daughter to make insinuations about this teacher because he follows fitness models on SM. He's a PE teacher, of course he's following fitness fanatics. I follow a load of fitness people online because that's what people who are into fitness do.

Teenage girls can be very bitchy and nasty if their behaviour is allowed to go unchecked. Teach your kid to not make nasty insinuations about people nor to join in when her friends do.

This is why men shy away from teaching. Who'd blame them. Ffs. Calling him a pervert for no valid reason other than they're trying to stir drama.

Teenage girls are more likely to be sexually harassed,abused,raped and coerced into sex.

Teenage girls also have the right to feel uncomfortable in the presence of a male. It doesn't mean they're in the wrong or that he is in the wrong.

Such mysoginistic name calling for young girls who actually haven't done much, compared to OP,her language,her insinuations is completely out of order.

[quote ComeOnBabyHauntMyBubble]@garden ok what should the school do in this situation though?
What has the teacher actually done that the girls should be listened about?
They are uncomfortable with him watching them during a PE lesson. That's all we know. We don't know if he's leering,if it's due to his behaviour,if he made comments, or if it's just because he's a man and they had a female teacher so far.

So ,please tell me how can we listen to the girls and what actions could the school/OP do based on a feeling?

Which apparently is not even the problem, since OP is focusing on who he follows on Instagram as her main complaint/issue.[/quote]
Exactly, it is not 100% clear to us how his behaviour is making the girls feel uncomfortable so it would be sensible for the school to have a conversation with the girls/parents (which will include listening - I’m not sure why you are asking how that should work?) to find out more.

Then the school can make a plan of action, if necessary depending on the outcome of that conversation - do you think that would be straightforward enough?

It could be as simple as being unused to having a male teacher which doesn’t invalidate the girls concerns but would require a different course of action than if something more serious was at the root.

I didn’t read the op as focussing on the teacher’s sm at all - as she has explained more than once, checking the sm came after the ‘feeling uncomfortable’ and the fact that he has decided to ignore standard professional advice to keep his sm open is a concern (not a massive concern in itself but a concern nonetheless).

At the end of the day, there are teachers who do abuse their positions of responsibility so I don’t understand why so many are so quick to dismiss and minimise the feelings of these girls.

The op is not stirring up anything but has asked a reasonable question and seems to be looking to deal with it in a real way.

I don't understand where the stuff about op wants him sacked/ only wants a female pe teacher has come from.

I can't see anything from the op about it. Not sure where those ideas came from.

The teacher absolutely knows this isn't OK. It's drummed into you to be incredibly careful on all SM.

All accounts should be private & those kind of images heavily frowned upon.

@NiceGerbil

I went to an all girl's school and so we got changed for pe at lockers in the corridor.

The music teacher was always wandering around that part of the building at pe changing time.

The music bit had it's own building separate.

Some of the girls thought he was creepy. I didn't. I was pretty naive though. Who can say?

He did nothing wrong and a few girls saying he's creepy did no harm to him.

What we do know as women, and often learnt as girls, is that men can make you feel extremely uncomfortable, vulnerable, without doing anything that doesn't sound completely trivial if you try to explain.

Which is why dismissing this out of hand is not good. You're imagining it, I'm sure he's perfectly nice, it's not fair on him, I expect you all fancy him! Etc etc. It means that they try to ignore the radar, and then I've day, they don't get away when they wanted to because they didn't want to been seen as unfairly judging a lovely man. I've been there. Not wanting to make s fuss. Nothing too serious. Nothing that couldn't be brushed off by adults who really really don't want to hear any of it because it makes things tricky.

See the creepy driving instructor threads on here as an example of that mechanism.

Okay, now that I would say was inappropriate. Very clearly so. And hugely different to what is being described by OP.

One thing we should have learnt by now is that we have to be meticulous with safeguarding because if we are not, the damage that can be done is devastating. That doesn't mean assuming that the teacher in this case is a predator. But it does mean treating it as a safeguarding issue. Teachers have to have their SM private or have a student-friendly SM. If insta can't be made properly private then he shouldn't be on there. This is for his protection as well as the students' tbh.

I know it's not really fair and ideally students shouldn't look up their teachers online, but in reality they do, and it can cause all sorts of problems. I teach adults and they admit to looking me up online. I'm not on any social media but if I was, I'd be really careful, and mindful of the age and character of my students.

As women, we know when we are being made to feel uncomfortable by men. It's a skill we have to learn: Recognising The Male Gaze. Yes, possibly, some women and girls will get it wrong and feel uncomfortable with a totally nice and innocent man, but there is a Male Gaze,and yes it can feel threatening, even of the man didn't"do anything" explicitor criminal

Well perhaps women should all wear burqas and men should be banned from teaching girls.

And by the way , don't presume to speak for all women. You can count me out of your "we as women" team.

I find it alarming to see that anyone finds it alarming that posters are asking that the OP explains exactly what the man is doing that is making the girls feel uncomfortable.

@DidoLamenting

As women, we know when we are being made to feel uncomfortable by men. It's a skill we have to learn: Recognising The Male Gaze. Yes, possibly, some women and girls will get it wrong and feel uncomfortable with a totally nice and innocent man, but there is a Male Gaze,and yes it can feel threatening, even of the man didn't"do anything" explicitor criminal

Well perhaps women should all wear burqas and men should be banned from teaching girls.

And by the way , don't presume to speak for all women. You can count me out of your "we as women" team.

I find it alarming to see that anyone finds it alarming that posters are asking that the OP explains exactly what the man is doing that is making the girls feel uncomfortable.

Agree 100%.

If the op had evidence of any actual wrong doing, why is she focusing on Instagram followers?

And why is she leading this and not letting the parents of the child who is worried drive it forwards?

Which is why dismissing this out of hand is not good

But accepting as gospel the statement from the girls with no further enquiry is fine?

Asking for more information is not "dismissing this out of hand"

He follows body builders on Instagram? Wouldn't bither me in the slightest.

When I was at school, I had a teacher who freaked me put with the way he looked at me. The deputy head said it was probably nothing, but I noticed the teacher’s behaviour improved straight away. It is always worth saying something.

'That is indeed harrowing and a really tragic horrible story. I don’t think it can in any way be likened to this though.'

Stories. A lot of children.

I specifically said it was an aside and not related to the op, it was just in the news the other day and I was thinking about it.

'I of course think that children should be believed if they disclose abuse'

But that's the end point. The starting point is. I don't feel comfy with teacher X. (Not for those children, who were extremely vulnerable indeed). But in general. These girls say teacher X makes them feel uncomfortable.

To say he's done nothing wrong, I expect you all just fancy him! Or have taken against him. Stop gossiping. He's teaching you pe fgs of course he'll look at you... What if a next small step is taken? Child knows that parents will dismiss.

To expect a child to listen to. It's nothing is nothing is nothing is nothing... And to keep bothering telling. Is not how it works.

That is how so much CSA has gone on through all the scandals with religious groups, TV personalities, etc. It is a slow process of grooming. And society is NOT on the side of the child. We like to think we are but we're not. As evidenced by scandal after scandal.

Of course the children who have parents who listen and say. Nothing can be done but thanks for telling me, I understand. Let me know if anything else happens. Are the children that will not be targeted. And what harm is done by saying that? Rather than. Oh you girls! You obviously fancy/ hate him. Where's the evidence. Etc. That makes them know to STFU. and then when something awful makes the news. Hand wringing all round.

There is nothing wrong with saying thanks for telling me etc.

The idea that they want to do a good man down... I mean none of us know. He might be lovely. He might not. FWR regs say. Ok DD thanks for telling me. Others say SHE'S TRYING TO GET HIM SACKED!

I mean. Think about these messages to children. There is a middle ground. Which surely is the best one to take?

And by the way , don't presume to speak for all women. You can count me out of your "we as women" team.

Oh, I do, Dido, don't worry.

Anyway, he teaches PE
That's enough for 99% of mumsnetters to want him sacked anyway.

20:44RealityNotEssentialism

'Okay, now that I would say was inappropriate. Very clearly so.'

Why?
He never did anything or said anything. He didn't leer.
Why is that so obviously inappropriate? I mean the man needs to get to the staff room or canteen...

???

It's not unreasonable to dig down as to what he is doing that makes them feel uncomfortable. If he's actually doing something then it needs reporting so steps can be taken.

Surely anyone with an interest in safeguarding would want safeguarding concerns investigated?

Query- what happens when the girls get changed? We had female PE teachers (and one definitely did weird us out) but they always supervised changing or at least sat in the office within the changing room, which did have a window overlooking the changing room.