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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

10yo son accused of being transphobic, help me write to school

424 replies

flowery · 03/11/2020 10:09

I am trying not to be too angry, but my 10yo came home yesterday saying I'd be pleased to know what he said about transgender at school. It was a discussion amongst his friends, not with the teacher present and not as part of a lesson, and he'd said it was not possible to change sex.

Apparently one of his friends said he was transphobic for saying so. He doesn't seem worried and doesn't want me to make a fuss, and it doesn't sound like it was said to him in a nasty way. But I'm not happy.

I've got no reason to think the school is teaching any gender woo stuff, I don't think they're particularly 'woke', but I want to check. I'm also not sure what to do about the accusation. I don't want my son to feel he can't express a view or say biological sex is real without someone else accusing him of any kind of 'phobia'.

He's not shy and is popular and quite a strong character, but that's not the point.

I have the new government guidance so I am planning to write to his teacher, probably in a 'not making a fuss don't want to get anyone into trouble' kind of way, just asking how they teach this subject and reiterating that I would like to be sure that it is clear to children that someone disagreeing with them isn't a phobia, that it is is not literally possible to change sex, and that differing opinions are perfectly fine.

I seem to remember someone somewhere linking to some kind of table done by the NHS where it says it's not possible to change biological sex. I can't find it, does anyone know what it was and perhaps have a link?

Plus any thoughts on how best to handle it would also be appreciated.

OP posts:
needanewidea · 03/11/2020 13:04

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Is the opinion of a child who says santa is real equally "valid" to one who knows he isn't?

Santa isn't really a legal matter.

Ops son could get into real trouble if he expressed his views to someone who is transgender in future.

What form do you think this "real trouble" would take? On what basis would he be in trouble if he said to a trans person that there are only 2 sexes?
Helmetbymidnight · 03/11/2020 13:05

For clarity, "it" being legal for trans woman to be seen as women, and trans men as being men.

Is that supposed to be clarity?

Are you suggesting its illegal for transwomen to not be 'seen' as women, and transwomen to not be seen as men?

Because that's not the case.

Quaagars · 03/11/2020 13:06

I think you need to calm down

Who's that aimed at, me?
If so, I'm perfectly calm lol, what a bizarre comment!

Cailleach1 · 03/11/2020 13:06

Demolition People are able to change sex legally. You might dispute whether they can do it biologically, but your son was wrong at least in the legal sense.

As Eresh said, it is only that your 'Gender' is recognised as being a certain thing in the eyes of the law. That is not 'changing' you sex in fact. Being recognised for legal purposes in any legal jurisdiction, is not a change in organic reality.

Where is there a 'dispute' that you can change sex biologically? A dispute no less! Looking forward to seeing that Science.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/11/2020 13:06

Even if in your eyes it's "a legal fiction" - doesn't stop it being legal.

People have explained to you in detail what you are failing to grasp. I'm not interested in a pointless debate.

needanewidea · 03/11/2020 13:06

@Quaagars

There's a popular misconception that it's illegal for individuals to misgender other people. That's simply not true

You're right, it's not true that it's illegal to misgender people, people can make mistakes.
Where does it stop being accidental misgendering and deliberate, constant harassment of trans people though?
Blurry lines

But the idea that they've actually changed sex is faith-based, not factual
I agree with that bit though, as it isn't possible to biologically change sex, that's fact.
Trans people are legally allowed to live as their preferred gender though, however much some people on here might not like it.

Where does it stop being accidental misgendering and deliberate, constant harassment of trans people though?

If the idea that stating that biological sex is real is seen as harassment we have serious issues.

Should it be seen as harassment for someone to mention that evolution is real in the company of a creationist?

Quaagars · 03/11/2020 13:08

I'm not interested in a pointless debate

Colour me surprised, that you don't want to debate.
Stick to your echo chamber and pretend you can't see others like the usual case then.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/11/2020 13:09

I can debate this, as you know perfectly well. I'm not going to waste my time debating it with you.

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 03/11/2020 13:09

Zebras have 4 legs.

My children don't feel the need to exclaim this.

...until some child in the playground says that zebras have five legs. Which is more comparable with the situation we are talking about. But of course you know that. xx

MistressIggi · 03/11/2020 13:10

Quaggars, do you teach your own children that it is possible to change sex?

Quaagars · 03/11/2020 13:13

If the idea that stating that biological sex is real is seen as harassment we have serious issues

Where have I even said that?!
Of course stating biological sex is real isn't seen as harassment, I know you can't biologically change sex, and I've said as much upthread.
Can't you see the difference between the sentence above this one and say repeatedly calling Sarah she as you don't believe in "bloody nonsense" when she comes out as trans and wants to be seen as James?
I was talking about misgendering.

MistressIggi · 03/11/2020 13:14

But which of those scenarios is closer to what the OP's child did? Confused

Quaagars · 03/11/2020 13:15

I can debate this, as you know perfectly well
Yes you can, only if people agree with you though.

I'm not going to waste my time debating it with you
Cool, fine by me

Graciebobcat · 03/11/2020 13:16

There are plenty of actual facts though that can be racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic or just downright offensive or upsetting depending on the context and how they are said. With freedom of expression comes responsibility. I wouldn't expect a ten year old to get it right every time, mind, but if it were my son I'd be explaining to him that what he said could be seen as transphobic depending on the nature of the conversation and the circumstances.

GilbertMarkham · 03/11/2020 13:16

*Zebras have 4 legs.

My children don't feel the need to exclaim this.*

If other children were telling them they have six, they might.

MistressIggi · 03/11/2020 13:19

@MistressIggi

Quaggars, do you teach your own children that it is possible to change sex?
Did you see my question?
DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 03/11/2020 13:20

What form do you think this "real trouble" would take? On what basis would he be in trouble if he said to a trans person that there are only 2 sexes?

That isn't what he said though.

Are you saying that he wouldn't get into trouble at school, college or work if he told a transman that they haven't actually changed sex and he is still a woman?

We both know that ops son absolutely would get suspended at least for saying that to a transgender person.

Quaagars · 03/11/2020 13:20

But which of those scenarios is closer to what the OP's child did?

The first one
So I agree with him if he said you can't literally change sex, still not sure it's a teacher and school matter though as I said - as it's two kids talking in the playground and he will hear views different to yours.
Kids chuck insults at each other all the time and also sometimes say words they don't always know the full meaning of.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/11/2020 13:22

Yes you can, only if people agree with you though.

That is quite the misrepresentation as I think you know. I've never shied away from conversations with people I disagree with on this issue or any other.

A debate is where two people attempt to change the view of the other? You might like to check your dictionary. If I talk to people I agree with about a given subject it's a discussion rather than a debate.

GintyMarlow2 · 03/11/2020 13:25

Haven't teachers enough to do, especially these days, without righteously indignant parents rocking up to claim their attention on everything children say in the playground?
If it was harassment or bullying you would have a point, but this isn't. It's one child's opinion over another's. Save your angst for when something really goes wrong.

Onjnmoeiejducwoapy · 03/11/2020 13:26

@GintyMarlow2

Haven't teachers enough to do, especially these days, without righteously indignant parents rocking up to claim their attention on everything children say in the playground? If it was harassment or bullying you would have a point, but this isn't. It's one child's opinion over another's. Save your angst for when something really goes wrong.
This
IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 03/11/2020 13:26

...and eresh is happy to answer questions, I've noticed.

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 03/11/2020 13:26

Unlike some.

Winesalot · 03/11/2020 13:27

You might dispute whether they can do it biologically

I’d really like to know just what you would expect a school to teach in their biology lessons about sex classifications if you honestly believe there is some dispute about the ability to change sex in a human body. Extreme and often risky cosmetic surgery changes some sex characteristics but a person will always react to drugs and treatments as their sex unless that treatment would normally be effected by hormone levels. To teach anything else is dangerous.

Or are you bringing in people’s medical conditions after a specific group has asked not to have their conditions used to falsely create misleading science to the contrary?

Cailleach1 · 03/11/2020 13:28

Of course people have a perfect right to any personal beliefs. We should all be free to live our lives as long as we do not adversely impact or try to coerce others to state they believe them also if they don't. If someone has such beliefs that they wish or coerce others lie to assuage said beliefs, then that is where their rights end. From there on they are impinging on the rights of others.

That is just it really. For all of us. I don't try to make a thing of it if you don't recognise me for the supreme majesty and queen of the world that I am, and you don't make a thing of it if I don't agree with your very personal beliefs.

I am talking about beliefs.