SANDS sorry if upsetting

[InTheShadowOfTheMushroomCloud]

I have no words. This has upset me so much...

@ArabellaScott

to you, Vanguard.

This tweet and reaction illustrates quite well, though, what I think people sometimes don't seem to get wrt the erasure of women. It hurts women to take those words away. It's not about negating other people's experiences. It's not about denying other people their feelings.

But women and mothers are as deserving of compassion, it hurts them as much to have their names and words removed.

It may seem a delicate balance - the word 'mother' or 'woman' apparently hurts some people by excluding them, so they wish to use a different word. But by replacing 'mother' or 'woman' with 'cervix haver' or 'birthing parent' and so on, if you don't also use 'woman' or 'mother' you are completely erasing those identities. It's hurtful, upsetting, offensive and causes pain.

Weird how the identities of some people apparently matters, but when women/mothers ask for theirs to be respected, it's 'bigotry' 'hatred' and 'weaponising their trauma' etc.

'Inclusive' has too often meant removing the word woman, instead of adding the other words that people find to apply to themselves.

Women are not invisible, or to be dismissed. Use 'birthing parent' for those whom it comforts, absolutely. But don't push away the word 'mother'. Please.

I think that this voices it perfectly. 3 years ago when I heard that the word "mother" was being erased I thought "that's not what's happening, people are just being kind and inclusive. They'll use inclusive terms but they won't stop using the word mother". But this last year I have seen such a change in the use of words describing so many things that I used to identify with "mother" "women" "female". It's disorientating and destabilising and you feel emptier. This is probably the experience of the people who want to have language to describe them too, and so I can see that it is right to acknowledge that transgender men or non-binary people give birth. But this can be acknowledged without erasing the word mother.

I had a late miscarriage before having my first daughter. I went from feeling "a mother" to feeling lost, but someone letting me know that I could still use that word meant so much to me. Motherhood is an identity, not my only one, but one of many and it carries connections and meaning that you can trace through our history and culture and connects you with other women in a way which is unique.

If you look at the comments of the people quoting the apology tweet then there are a disturbing number of people saying that women wanting to keep that word is "transphobic" and swearwords at the women who were upset. Who is trying to divide us like this?

If it's about identifying the mother who gave birth in a lesbian couple, what's wrong with "birth mother"? "Birthing parent" is based on a fictional that men can give birth too.

Who is trying to divide us like this?

I would hazard a guess that for the most part it's not actually the people supposedly 'included' with this move.

I could be wrong. Anyone who prefers the word 'birthing parent' for themselves want to chip in here?*

*I am asking specifically for the views of lesbians or transmen or non-binary people with uteruses. Because I have the feeling that very often, other people are speaking on behalf of these people and that in itself seems somewhat unfair, to me.

”I think it was just to include the minority groups as well.”

I don’t think any grieving mother would have a problem if that was what was happening. The last two words of that sentence are crucial. Including people who are mothers in a technical sense but prefer not to use that term as well would be fine. Removing the appropriate (and so important!) language for the vast majority of the people who need this charity isn’t including others as well.

And I am going to take an awful lot of convincing that it is transmen who have chosen to go through the most female thing it is possible to do who are the ones who have a problem with the term “mother”. It isn’t, let’s get real. It’s transwomen who don’t like female language being used in a context that doesn’t include them, and it’s noisy people whose priority is virtue-signalling.

I’m on that Twitter thread, as one of the many women commenting in the context of having lost children. I’ve been accused of being a bigot as a result.

Nice people, the ones prioritising “inclusion”, eh? Anyone who aligns themselves with people like that needs to take a good hard look at what they’re doing and open their eyes. Nothing kind about this movement.

The famous transman who gave birth and was refused permission to be listed as father on the birth certificate has characterised (on twitter) the reaction of distress from bereaved mothers as ‘bullying transphobes’ who must be stood up to.

I can’t see any mothers calling for the use of terms that deliberately exclude transgender people in this - it seems that ‘ mothers and other birth parents’ or similar would be accepted. I can’t imagine that this affects more than a handful of transgender people who give birth as the testosterone treatment is obviously not very compatible with getting pregnant.
The people arguing that this is intended to include lesbian couples in some way are obviously sadly deluded.

That distressed mothers who are merely asking for a word that is very important to them to remain included - are being characterised as bullying seems inhuman.

Apparently Tommy’s has gone the same way with an apology for using ‘mothers and fathers’.

I am kind of speechless at all this to be honest, but I wanted to send love to all those who have lost children. This is a powerful thread

Who is trying to divide us like this?

Men.

”I can’t see any mothers calling for the use of terms that deliberately exclude transgender people in this - it seems that ‘ mothers and other birth parents’ or similar would be accepted.”

Of course it would be. Perfectly fine. But that won’t be good enough. Only erasing female language completely will be good enough. And that’s what’s causing so many people to push back hard now. Because no concession is good enough. No kindness is enough. Only compete agreement is enough.

No. No more.

awning10, ‘mother’ does not exclude anyone.

People have different relationships with the word, but when you talk about ‘speaking as a motherrr’, you push everyone who uses that word into a box and create the world where people are excluded by a simple word that just describes a relationship that exists in all mammals.

I wouldn’t call you scum as I don’t know anything about you, but perhaps you could think a bit more deeply about how words include or exclude.

@merrymouse

awning10, ‘mother’ does not exclude anyone.

People have different relationships with the word, but when you talk about ‘speaking as a motherrr’, you push everyone who uses that word into a box and create the world where people are excluded by a simple word that just describes a relationship that exists in all mammals.

I wouldn’t call you scum as I don’t know anything about you, but perhaps you could think a bit more deeply about how words include or exclude.

I think @awning10 is quoting a tweet in their post?

It is about decoupling the name "mother" from the process of conception, birth and childrearing.

It changes the power relationship.

Barraker once did a great thread about it, but I can't find it atm.

It ended:

Barracker's Law:
"If you can describe it, but can't or mustn't name it, it is vulnerable.
If you can name it, but can't or mustn't describe it, it is powerful."

Oops sorry awning10 - missed the colon! (And thanks knights )

Awning are those Twitter quotes?

@Awning10

Some of the comments are incredible (for want of a better word):

I fucking hate the “speaking as a motherrrrr” crowd anyway, but they are a special kind of awful scum when it comes to stuff like this. Weaponising pregnancy, birth & childloss to center themselves specifically to exclude trans men & nb people.

People that bring up trauma & weaponise terrible things that have happened to them to manipulate, silence & guilt trip others are disgusting, abusive assholes.

Wow. Weaponising childloss. You’re a monster.

Ah, cross post.

Those are quotes from the kind and inclusive lot, I see. How compassionate they are.

SANDS is a wonderful charity. I hope this doesn’t detract from the incredible support and help they give to everyone - mothers, fathers, grandparents, siblings, everyone.

I have been and had a look at the SANDS website.

I entered "mother" as a search term, and looked on as many pages as I could find.

The word "mother" was on none of them. "Mum", yes, as the anonymising signature to letters they have received. Mother, no. "Woman" once, when quoting the words of a "Mum"; "women" once, in a mission statement by one of the trustees. ("Sands’ commitment to strengthening UK perinatal research will directly lead to new discoveries and better care for women and their families.")

They do however talk about bereaved families, often.

@flowery

”I can’t see any mothers calling for the use of terms that deliberately exclude transgender people in this - it seems that ‘ mothers and other birth parents’ or similar would be accepted.”

Of course it would be. Perfectly fine. But that won’t be good enough. Only erasing female language completely will be good enough. And that’s what’s causing so many people to push back hard now. Because no concession is good enough. No kindness is enough. Only compete agreement is enough.

No. No more.

This.

And the projection in that quote - calling women who have lost babies minding, when also losing the name of 'mother' scum, and abusive... well, they do say narcissists project. That would seem to be an absolutely classic example, and I can only hope that the individual capable of typing such words gets the help they need, and cause as little harm as possible to others, with such a gravely evident level of disorder.

In response to the latest tweet, I think that they've said sorry "that" they upset people, not "if", which makes it feel more sincere to me.

But once again, this could have been constructed differently, and in a voice which suggested they were open to dialogue with their followers:

"We share our deepest love and sympathy with every person who's lost a child. The vast majority of our audience and donors are mums and parents. We hear how many of you felt hurt by our tweet today and we apologise. Please know that we tweeted with the best of intentions. We seek to include those who struggle with words like "mum" or "mother" but we will think about how we can word this better in future. Thank you for your support and feedback."

I used to run big social media channels in some previous jobs, and always tried to engage rather than just broadcast, because it worked better.

I would also be seeing the responses as really valuable engagement and something to analyse and respond to. When you get hit by negative replies its still a huge sign that people care about what you're saying after all.

Apparently Tommy’s has gone the same way with an apology for using ‘mothers and fathers’.

Yes, Tommy's, a charity devoted to "research into miscarriage, premature birth and stillbirth" is also jumping on the bandwagon.

This affects all women, as charities such as Tommy's fund research so their preferred language will seep into the gynaecology and maternity departments as well.
(We already know this is rife in breastfeeding groups, doulas, midwifery etc).

I will never support a charity for women and mothers who refuse to name them as such. Of course partners and wider family are affected by miscarriage and stillbirth but it is women who go through the physical processes and where much of the research and treatment will be focused.

One if the commenters says (in response to the Sands apology): "This is what TERFs do, they bully organisations and people into reverting back to gendered and binary language to actively erase and negate the existence and lived experiences of trans folk"

They then go on to say how Mumsnet is transphobic. When did wanting to keep the word "mother" become viewed as something hateful . I have been left-wing my whole life, inclusive, thought I was kind and sensitive, but I think that there is a nasty picture painted of "accept everything (including erasure of words that used to be associated with women)" or be a "bigot".

I only learnt the word "terf" a few weeks ago and apparently I have become one because I was also upset about that post!

They do however talk about bereaved families, often

My little brother was stillborn when I was 14. It was hugely sad for me - I had looked forward to his arrival - it was a big deal. It shook my family up.

But it was nothing to my mother's experience - all the coming to terms with a late baby and the big thing happening to her, the preparations; sorting hospital appointments and work, the (new then) scans, explaining to friends and neighbours, the maternity clothes. Feeling the baby move about and getting to know and bond with it.
Only to feel the baby moving strangely, and for that to stop, coming to terms with the death, the augmented labour in a room alone, the delivery where he was quietly taken away without her ever seeing him.

There was little we could do as a family to console her. Our experience was not hers. Our lives carried on. What she needed was connection from other women who had gone through this before her.

The bond between mother and baby is quite visceral and instinctive. It has been played down throughout history and by those who want to dissociate us from the rest of the animal kingdom as being 'higher beings' Some may feel it more than others, but it is the baby's route to survival.

My mother was one of the visceral ones. She spent many years unpicking what had happened to her. Groups like SANDS were unable to reach out to the extent they do today, but the information they gave to the press and the changes they encouraged in maternity services meant a lot to her.

I see Freddy McConnell has weighed in.

Still salty about not being called father on the birth certificate I see.