BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

[OhHolyJesus]

I mean I'm not surprised but Bitesize is used by schools through the country as a supposed reliable, unbiased source of education material.

mobile.twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1319025713475952641?fbclid=IwAR0rTBD2j5PKOeTKvYSSX90c4RUDmJDo7Zg613qnDBXNaAncv3J8epYWLSQ

You can complain here:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

Or email your MP and cc MPs Safe Schools Alliance on info@safeschoolsallianceuk.

In the tweet thread there are some people already complaining. I'm not a defund the BBC kind of person but I can see why license fee layers are questioning what the BBC are doing with their money (there is a website 'BBC complaints' that's all about biased Brexit coverage).

The bit I don't get about the Poland comments is that it sounds like a gotcha. If we don't stop whinging about what a woman is we'll see our abortion rights taken. Ha, women, that'll show you!

I don't get it either. Not saying anything and allowing ourselves to be silenced and dehumanised, and allowing men to speak on our behalf will lead to what's happening in Poland and much worse, surely.

@testing987654321

The bit I don't get about the Poland comments is that it sounds like a gotcha. If we don't stop whinging about what a woman is we'll see our abortion rights taken. Ha, women, that'll show you!

That's not the tone women use when warning women about dangerous situations in other countries. When people started saying "look what's happening in Canada" it had a feel of solidarity. "That could happen here if we don't wake up and fight."

One of the many reasons to listen to Datun, Eresh and all the other fabulous women on here.

Yes, this occurred to me earlier when reading a 'what about lesbians in your spaces?' gotcha attempt. I suddenly realized that not only was this nasty, bogus homophobia, which is bad enough, but it wasn't even being brought up with some bizarre suggestion that women needed protected from this scourge of predatory lesbians.

It was working in tandem with the actual fact of the statistical threat to women from men, to create a fictional threat to women from lesbians, and the entire purpose was to underline to women how little they mattered at all, and undermine and remove any and all of their boundaries.

It's a phenomenon I keep seeing - bring something up and because women care about the issue, they will not notice that you don't, and are just chain yanking to tire them out.

eachother.org.uk/woman-trans-past-define-who-i-am/

And here's wealthy conservative women's group leader who since retiring under 60 has this to say:

Is there anything you would like to achieve which you haven’t yet?
Yes. Outside of professional stuff, I set myself three ambitions in life: one is to learn to fly, another is to ride a horse and the third is to play the piano.

I now have a private pilot’s license and I ride my horses.

But I haven’t learned properly to play the piano yet. That’s what I need to do.

The sweeping generalisations on this thread don't stand up to much scrutiny.

Quite a few Tory voters last time round seem to have been from pretty impoverished backgrounds. Should we damn them for it? (I did some work for the Labour Party in this constituency and it made me want to weep: the people planning to vote Tory seemed to think Johnson and his cronies were on their side, God alone knows why.)

Erm, lesbians are us, right? All sisters, regardless of sexual preferences, having each others backs. What woman ever wanted to exclude lesbian women from single sex spaces? I never heard of such a thing.

Heck, most of us have been quietly welcoming obvious transwomen for decades, as long as they didn't misbehave (aka behave like men) around us while we're vulnerable. It's only the strident insistence that the doors to single sex women's spaces must be permanently wedged open to welcome all and any men, regardless of their gender feelz, who happen to fancy wandering in and doing whatever they felt like that rang alarm bells for most of us.

I suspect JJ could be extrapolating from personal knowledge of homophobia among men? I can't imagine where else this could come from. Women don't work like that, but I guess JJ hasn't spent enough time around women yet to have realised it. 🤷🏼‍♀️

No, nor would I. It's the self ID that breaches boundaries and compromises women's safety. Sadly, I don't feel as welcoming to transwomen in single sex spaces as I used to because of the very different nature of many transwomen now and who comes in with or after them through the door we're not so confident of being able to close now.

Its not up to women to fix the world for trans people. We're not obliged to set ourselves on fire to keep you warm. Fuck that for a game of sodjers.

Butterer
I guess that trans women can be attracted to women and self describe as lesbians too? I can say I wouldn't be happy sharing space with someone in that context...

They can, and do. Lesbians I know aren't too happy about sharing their space with them, in that context.

To be clear 'What about lesbians?' is a common 'argument' presented when women talk about the need for women only provision and reference the statistics about male violence towards women. It's part of the 'script', like 'Being trans is just like being gay' and all the follow on ideas that not affirming pronouns is conversion therapy etc. You'll see it called TRA bingo, too. 'Attacking trans rights means losing abortion rights' is another line from the script.

My comment was simply that I had also noticed these arguments look superficially about concern for women's rights, but what they are doing is taking something and using it as decoration to disguise that they don't care about any of the rights in question.

Obviously, the 'connection' between predatory men and lesbians is only that lesbians, like any woman, can be assaulted by a predatory man.

And guilted about being transphobes for not wanting penetrative sex with a lady dick -- I sometimes wonder whether that's a description of the body part or its owner, but it's their phrase, not mine.

The lesbians thing is old hat and I believe comes from the same place as it all- that lots of men don't see women as real whole people.

I've come across this at work. Men assuming that if a woman is attracted to women then she must follow the same behaviours, feelings, patterns around sex as men. They assume she is 'like a man'. They can't even begin to get to grips with anything outside their own personal reference points and feelings.

That's what I thought must be going on, NiceGerbil. It's s perplexing point unless the person making it is applying men's behaviour patterns, which of course don't apply.

Lesbian women, along with children and teenagers, are emerging as the most vulnerable, marginalised and oppressed groups in all this, as I see it, followed by women and transmen then transwomen, if we need rankings.

I'd march and speak up - just as I did against war (Vietnam) as a student -for any or all these groups to have their human rights: protection for children; equality of opportunity, pay etc for the adult groups and free speech and freedom to dress and express ourselves as we please and live untrammelled by gendered expectations. Everything but giving up rights to single sex provision in public toilets, changing rooms, hostels, refuges, hospital wards and prisons.

Yes the whole thing stems from men.

Male imposed gender roles (albeit often supported by women for reasons that are probably another thread!)

A very shallow view of women and girls based in narrow stereotypes

A good dash of misogyny

None of this is new

GNC women have always got shit from men for not toeing the line. Up to and including violence, rape and murder.

Our status as sex objects/ public property unless with our male owner starts from a really young age with street harassment and worse, way worse

And all the rest of it. Which is just so awful. And whether it's seen as trivial by society (a man wanking at you when you're 12) or serious (FGM, forced marriage) it all comes from the same place.

I have seen a few threads on here about street harassment where a mum is with a daughter. Daughter gets obscene stuff shouted at her. Mum goes up at the lights and says what the hell she's only 13. Men look horrified and are apologetic.

And that kind of encapsulates the problem. Lots of men don't automatically see us as people at all. We are 2D stereotypes if they don't know us, objects. No thought is given to how the girl/ woman being shouted at will feel, because she's not a whole person.

That's at the heart of this. Some men look at us as presented in the media and as we're seen in society and think yeah. That looks good. Go around being sexy, loads of people want to sleep with you. Prosecco and what have you all the way. I mean that sounds shit to me which I suppose makes me not a woman. But again. Men have always told us what we are, and the ones who don't conform are wrong.

So in a bizarre way it makes sense. If you are a man and you have consumed those stereotypes then what's the fuss about? I meet those things so that's what I am too...

Lots of men don't automatically see us as people at all. We are 2D stereotypes if they don't know us, objects.

I'm not gender non conforming, I look stereotypically female, I enjoy looking feminine and I've recognised that it can be useful, but it has also been a huge burden in my studies and in my job. Mainly because LOOKING stereotypically female triggers immense shock when you go off script. So, for example, I was told by a male friend at university (many moons ago) following a heated debate between myself and a group of young men I considered to be friends and intellectual equals that they had "all fancied me, up until I lost my temper" that evening. So the most important aspect of the relationship with each of those men was not - as I thought - the opportunity for exciting and rigorous debate, but that they wanted to screw me. It made me rage, as have numerous experiences ever since. "Tone down" my reactions in the workplace, smile for the creepy, but important perv who can't take his eyes off your tits, be witty and entertaining, but not too clever. Fold yourself up, bend, make yourself smaller. I'm a hell of a lot bigger nowadays and I couldn't care less because they'll ignore you once you're my age whether you're stereotypically feminine or not. Sorry I've gone off topic, probably a bit angry after a tough week, but this: the whole thing stems from men.

YY

The idea that women who are attractive somehow 'win' is such bollocks.

I also ticked the patriarchy approved looks boxes. Small build, big blue eyes, natural blonde etc.

I noticed the way I was treated from very young. The surprise that being pretty was not the main or determining thing about me. That compliments on my looks were not well received. That I was pretty much incapable of pretending that it was. The non reaction and challenging look put people off balance, from when I was young.

The idea that girls and women have the main aim of being attractive to men comes from men I think, and is reinforced across society. The more I think about it the more I think yes, that makes sense.

I also struggled with being taken seriously... Actually. No. Treated as a person.

My whole life I was a feminist before I even knew the word. I wanted to be treated as a person first. And I wasn't. I can count on the fingers of one hand the men I've known who have seen person first. And that may be an overestimate TBF.

There was a thread on here about, I forget the term. Beauty privilege or something?

For me this is a concept that bears no relation to feminism. It has been invented to divide us. Any 'privilege' or otherwise is based in how we appeal to heterosexual men and get treated as a result. It feels very divisive and grounded again in male gaze. Yes women who look different ways get differently. But none of us are treated well. And it appeals to this again male driven idea that being attractive is the be all and end all. I say no to the concept. All that happens is that women argue about who was worse off and how. No woman has an easy time in society. It's a distraction.

My whole life I was a feminist before I even knew the word. I wanted to be treated as a person first. And I wasn't. I can count on the fingers of one hand the men I've known who have seen person first. And that may be an overestimate TBF.

That's it! It took a while to connect the bubbling resentment I felt with being repeatedly objectified and diminished for being female. In my mind I've always been equal, always seen other girls/women as equal and always felt a stinging sense of injustice that we are not treated as equals. What I experienced was doors opening or interest peaked because of the way I looked and then an expectation that you express gratitude and modify your behaviour to fit in with the men who’ve given you a pass. Which segues to the beauty privilege point, it may help gain entrance, but the conditions upon which you’re allowed to stick around make your position fragile and precarious. You must always look good and you must maintain those looks in the face of marching time. Don’t get saggy! You must smile to get your point across, be warm not cold, don't be a bitch, be kind, make men feel comfortable, don't overstep the mark or get angry. The ‘submissiveness’ that seems to appeal to some isn’t innate, it’s required. We’re all people, we’re all different, but for many men we really are just a set of parts.

The BBC story made the DM by the way

BBC Bitesize Pronouns article has been updated:
www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zp6ftrd

A response to my complaint from the BBC - quotes from the email in italics, other comments my own.

they recognise that the image was 'open to misinterpretation' but was meant to depict a sports hall rather than a changing room apparently.

The article is intended to help teachers and pupils navigate one of the more complex aspects of this topic (RSE) and is factual and based on research into the subject.

there weren't many obvious facts in this - maybe the mention of the use of 'they' as a singular pronoun since 1375 counts as a fact?

The intention and substance of the article supports school age pupil's understanding of the protected characteristics of gender reassignment and sexual orientation.

there seems to be no mention of anything to do with sexual orientation in this article, and not really anything to do with gender reassignment, just talking about people who don't fit into male or female categories.

In order to avoid 'promotion of partisan views' - the BBC principle of impartiality - we worked with Stonewall (as stated) but recognise that the sole mention of Stonewall may have given the impression of a partial perspective and have therefore added to links to other organisations with expertise in this field

they have included one extra link to a charity called Just Like Us - I can't find out a huge amount about them but they are an LGBT charity that works in schools. Run by an ex Stonewall person - not sure if that is good or bad on the LGB side of things.

Unsatisfactory - could do better.

Thanks for sharing Garden. This is still gobbledegook:

These can include:
• Ne (Ne/nem/nir)
• Ve (Ve/vis/vir)
• Ze (Ze/zem/zir)
• And a set of pronouns known as ‘spivak’ (ey, em, eir).

I just can't believe this nonsense is being shared as an educational tool for kids.

I got my BBC reply to my complaint - looks the same as Gardenbird's. They have not responded to my main point which was that expecting girls to pretend boys and men are not boys and men is a safeguarding issue. As far as I am concerned they haven't answered the complaint I made.

Same here. As far as I can see it is extremely questionable as to whether it complies with the current RSE standards although they claim it does and I would be interested to see what are the ‘facts’ that they refer to as I can only see one and that is questionable at best.
Can you set out ‘facts’ for an ideology - wouldn’t beliefs be more accurate?

As far as I’m concerned that article in no way fulfils their stated aim of ‘supporting a pupils understanding’ of the protected characteristics of sexual orientation or gender reassignment and I am disappointed that they saw fit to spend our money on this guff.

expecting girls to pretend boys and men are not boys and men is a safeguarding issue

💯