Oh and also in the 90s I wore stretchy black jeans. These were less popular/mainstream then. They looked feminine as they were skin tight. Of course some of the men wore ones that looked like these too, but the women's ones look quite obviously feminine/female on a female body. I didn't feel 'frumpy'/unattractive in them like I would've in most trousers.
I do own some tops that my DP wouldn't wear (the odd flounce) I suppose, which is because of gendered expectations around looking smart (thank god with lockdown that's an even rarer occurrence than it was before).
@TreestumpsAndTrampolines Yes, I think lockdown might effect some women's choices long term. I mostly gave up concealer, and think I'll stick with that even if I go 'femme' again, except for the odd spot. It doesn't look much different under my eyes etc for not using it anyway. It was quite time-consuming.
you are right. OP I apologise if I was snarky. I am just so fed up with clothes used to signal some inner, unspecified gender identity.
@CoffeeTeaChocolate The aim of dressing 'gender free' is completely the opposite. To be a 'conscientious objector to gender.'
If you want to support feminism or women, I believe there are so many other areas where you can have a bit impact. Clothes are just clothes.
It's not an either/or. I can do this and still do other stuff. This will mostly be something I'll only have to sort out once/not spend much time on it in future.
Also my dh owns floral shirts while i go for checked. The "gendered" aspect is the fit
To an extent, as PP's have said, this is sexed rather than gendered. It's adapting a style to suit a woman's shape. But I think the average woman dressing 'gender free' maybe wouldn't do that. If they had a big boob/waist ratio they'd just wear a T-shirt that was large enough at the boob. Or women would wear a large shirt/blouse. If they were 'gender free' they wouldn't care if it fitted in a feminine way.
Some clothes are cut to emphasise the female figure rather than cover it if you see what I mean. Like coats with a waist and then flaring out. They're not cut as flamboyantly as they are out of necessity, but style.
For instance Julia Long, she'd probably argue she was but I don't think she always dresses 'gender free.' Those are probably professionally tailored shirts she wears sometimes, and they're cut to flatter her figure (and look really nice, although it seems a bit like she's 'cheating.'
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I've ordered some racerback sporty tops although that probably still doesn't really count probably, as they're figure hugging. I hate T-shirts.
Clothes the op deems “non gendered” are more the societal norm It is what most women wear now.
@Bluntness100 I made this point on feminist twitter a few years ago. I don't want to be offensive but some women dress that way in my city and it's more so in particular areas (or was a few years ago.) They are working class women and they choose T-shirts, fleeces, short hair etc. It may be that they need something more practical, or they've had bad experiences with men and don't want to dress in a way that attracts attention. Plus these clothes are inexpensive. Most of my clothes are charity shop or Primark though.
What I can’t understand is the op asks “has anyone tried it” like it’s something pioneering. When we’ve nearly all been doing it for decades.
Good for you. Not everyone has. And I probably don't bother with some other gendered practices that most women do, like as much of the shaving, or the hair dying I hope not to do again and have dyed my natural grey so I don't have to bother with doing my roots ever again.
I just don't think my choices of clothes needs to be a signifier of some kind of "gender free" ideal, it just sounds really performative and makes me cringe a bit.
@BebeStevens The theory is that it's the opposite. Gender is acting according to a sex role, so if you don't dress for the role then theoretically it's not a performance. I get what you mean though, if it's deliberate it can have an aesthetic (in a not conventionally aesthetic way.) But as Bluntness said, it can be completely free of such stuff, there's nothing intensely deliberate about it for most people at all, it's just things that cover their body and are practical for what they want to do.
Maybe it's 'gendered thinking' to even worry about 'my look' and whether it affects anyone else? I don't think I know any blokes who this would even vaguely occur to.
@ErrolTheDragon Yep. It's more trying to drop that thing. To no longer bother about appearance much more than the average bloke would. Or signal that women can choose to not give a shit.
Ideally from my point of view ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ as concepts would die out, like racial stereotypes.
@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes Yes, that would be nice, but I don't think it will do it entirely without as helping it along. Or at least, we can nudge it to try and move it along faster.
What WitchFinders? Shaving hair from legs is gender thing! Ah so, the men who are professional cyclists engage regularly in gender non-conforming practices then.
@Cailleach1 It's a gendered practice usually, but they're doing it for a functional reason. Most women aren't doing it for that reason.
uncomfortably baggy
@KihoBebiluPute I feel like that in tops that are baggy round the waist too. But I wonder if in a gender-free world we would feel that many things were 'uncomfortably baggy.' I feel like a frump in a baggy thing and it's pschologically unpleasant. But tightness is physically unpleasant. If you see what I mean. Without gender we wouldn't care about something loose enough over the boob fitted to show the comparative narrowness of our waists. Maybe?
Are dungarees of a gender?
Sheila Jeffreys jokes that when she was living with a man she wore 'heterosexual dungarees.' Some of the women wore dungarees that emphasised their figure, others didn't.
Re: OP I admit that I have stopped wearing makeup at work which I did for a brief 4 year period when I First started my current job. I am doing it partly because I Think it’s helpful for other women (my students) to see that not every woman wears makeup.
@FWRLurker Glad you can see the relevance of it. Especially as young women nowadays do their makeup a lot more intricately then we used to. They do contouring of the cheeks like some used to in the 80s, where in the 90s etc a lot of us at most put a bit of blush on the apples of our cheeks.
Bluntness- shaving etc is the same issue, it's all giving up beauty requirements. I was just saying you might see my former girly taste in clothes as retro but I don't do too badly in other respects.
I'm wondering why feminists feel the need to reference Bowie as an example of a man who wears make up / is "gender-non-conforming"
@DidoLamenting Also men are doing it as deliberately/chosen to be transgressive, and it is an option for them whereas there's a degree of societal pressure for women to do beauty practices, look conventionally attractive etc.
as David Bowie said this isn't a woman's dress it's a man's dress.
I don't know if Bowie also said that, but Eddie Izzard did. He identifies as 'non binary' now. I don't know many details about Bowie (except people say he was a paedo) Knew about the makeup looks (which weren't typically feminine makeup- I suppose some emo guys etc wore 'guyliner- this might be linked to them being gender non-conforming.) Didn't know he wore dresses/skirts.