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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do any of you dress etc 'gender free' or have tried to in the past?

353 replies

SoulofanAggron · 21/10/2020 12:23

I'm going a bit more 'gender free' in my look. Did try it once years ago for a couple of years. Have any of you tried it/done it?

I know a lot of women have quite a 'gender free' look anyway.

OP posts:
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AriettyHomily · 21/10/2020 17:45

Ffs. Today I'm wearing leggings and my husbands t shirt, tomorrow I might wear a really frilly dress. I wear what I want when I want and don't need to label it anything.

TheAugury · 21/10/2020 17:48

I always wear 'gender free' as David Bowie said this isn't a woman's dress it's a man's dress.

DidoLamenting · 21/10/2020 17:50

@DeaconBoo

so you disagree that saying something is a "good example" bears no moral judgement?
I'm wondering why feminists feel the need to reference Bowie as an example of a man who wears make up / is "gender-non-conforming"

Are such men in such short supply you (general you) have to scrape the barrel to include him?

DidoLamenting · 21/10/2020 17:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AsTreesWalking · 21/10/2020 18:02

Agree with PPs- I wear what fits/what i feel like.
Today I'm wearing a man's flowery shirt under a home made pinafore.
Tonight I will wear my favourite pjs - from the men's dept.

EarthSight · 21/10/2020 18:14

We all dress quite genderless these days. We wear trousers. We wear t shirts & jeans. I go out mostly without make up, wearing very similar clothes to my partner!

SoulofanAggron · 21/10/2020 18:16

Oh and also in the 90s I wore stretchy black jeans. These were less popular/mainstream then. They looked feminine as they were skin tight. Of course some of the men wore ones that looked like these too, but the women's ones look quite obviously feminine/female on a female body. I didn't feel 'frumpy'/unattractive in them like I would've in most trousers.

I do own some tops that my DP wouldn't wear (the odd flounce) I suppose, which is because of gendered expectations around looking smart (thank god with lockdown that's an even rarer occurrence than it was before).

@TreestumpsAndTrampolines Yes, I think lockdown might effect some women's choices long term. I mostly gave up concealer, and think I'll stick with that even if I go 'femme' again, except for the odd spot. It doesn't look much different under my eyes etc for not using it anyway. It was quite time-consuming.

you are right. OP I apologise if I was snarky. I am just so fed up with clothes used to signal some inner, unspecified gender identity.

@CoffeeTeaChocolate The aim of dressing 'gender free' is completely the opposite. To be a 'conscientious objector to gender.'

If you want to support feminism or women, I believe there are so many other areas where you can have a bit impact. Clothes are just clothes.

It's not an either/or. I can do this and still do other stuff. This will mostly be something I'll only have to sort out once/not spend much time on it in future.

Also my dh owns floral shirts while i go for checked. The "gendered" aspect is the fit

To an extent, as PP's have said, this is sexed rather than gendered. It's adapting a style to suit a woman's shape. But I think the average woman dressing 'gender free' maybe wouldn't do that. If they had a big boob/waist ratio they'd just wear a T-shirt that was large enough at the boob. Or women would wear a large shirt/blouse. If they were 'gender free' they wouldn't care if it fitted in a feminine way.

Some clothes are cut to emphasise the female figure rather than cover it if you see what I mean. Like coats with a waist and then flaring out. They're not cut as flamboyantly as they are out of necessity, but style.

For instance Julia Long, she'd probably argue she was but I don't think she always dresses 'gender free.' Those are probably professionally tailored shirts she wears sometimes, and they're cut to flatter her figure (and look really nice, although it seems a bit like she's 'cheating.' Smile )

I've ordered some racerback sporty tops although that probably still doesn't really count probably, as they're figure hugging. I hate T-shirts.

Clothes the op deems “non gendered” are more the societal norm It is what most women wear now.

@Bluntness100 I made this point on feminist twitter a few years ago. I don't want to be offensive but some women dress that way in my city and it's more so in particular areas (or was a few years ago.) They are working class women and they choose T-shirts, fleeces, short hair etc. It may be that they need something more practical, or they've had bad experiences with men and don't want to dress in a way that attracts attention. Plus these clothes are inexpensive. Most of my clothes are charity shop or Primark though.

What I can’t understand is the op asks “has anyone tried it” like it’s something pioneering. When we’ve nearly all been doing it for decades.

Good for you. Not everyone has. And I probably don't bother with some other gendered practices that most women do, like as much of the shaving, or the hair dying I hope not to do again and have dyed my natural grey so I don't have to bother with doing my roots ever again.

I just don't think my choices of clothes needs to be a signifier of some kind of "gender free" ideal, it just sounds really performative and makes me cringe a bit.

@BebeStevens The theory is that it's the opposite. Gender is acting according to a sex role, so if you don't dress for the role then theoretically it's not a performance. I get what you mean though, if it's deliberate it can have an aesthetic (in a not conventionally aesthetic way.) But as Bluntness said, it can be completely free of such stuff, there's nothing intensely deliberate about it for most people at all, it's just things that cover their body and are practical for what they want to do.

Maybe it's 'gendered thinking' to even worry about 'my look' and whether it affects anyone else? I don't think I know any blokes who this would even vaguely occur to.

@ErrolTheDragon Yep. It's more trying to drop that thing. To no longer bother about appearance much more than the average bloke would. Or signal that women can choose to not give a shit.

Ideally from my point of view ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ as concepts would die out, like racial stereotypes.

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes Yes, that would be nice, but I don't think it will do it entirely without as helping it along. Or at least, we can nudge it to try and move it along faster.

What WitchFinders? Shaving hair from legs is gender thing! Ah so, the men who are professional cyclists engage regularly in gender non-conforming practices then.

@Cailleach1 It's a gendered practice usually, but they're doing it for a functional reason. Most women aren't doing it for that reason.

uncomfortably baggy

@KihoBebiluPute I feel like that in tops that are baggy round the waist too. But I wonder if in a gender-free world we would feel that many things were 'uncomfortably baggy.' I feel like a frump in a baggy thing and it's pschologically unpleasant. But tightness is physically unpleasant. If you see what I mean. Without gender we wouldn't care about something loose enough over the boob fitted to show the comparative narrowness of our waists. Maybe?

Are dungarees of a gender?

Sheila Jeffreys jokes that when she was living with a man she wore 'heterosexual dungarees.' Some of the women wore dungarees that emphasised their figure, others didn't.

Re: OP I admit that I have stopped wearing makeup at work which I did for a brief 4 year period when I First started my current job. I am doing it partly because I Think it’s helpful for other women (my students) to see that not every woman wears makeup.

@FWRLurker Glad you can see the relevance of it. Especially as young women nowadays do their makeup a lot more intricately then we used to. They do contouring of the cheeks like some used to in the 80s, where in the 90s etc a lot of us at most put a bit of blush on the apples of our cheeks.

Bluntness- shaving etc is the same issue, it's all giving up beauty requirements. I was just saying you might see my former girly taste in clothes as retro but I don't do too badly in other respects.

I'm wondering why feminists feel the need to reference Bowie as an example of a man who wears make up / is "gender-non-conforming"

@DidoLamenting Also men are doing it as deliberately/chosen to be transgressive, and it is an option for them whereas there's a degree of societal pressure for women to do beauty practices, look conventionally attractive etc.

as David Bowie said this isn't a woman's dress it's a man's dress.

I don't know if Bowie also said that, but Eddie Izzard did. He identifies as 'non binary' now. I don't know many details about Bowie (except people say he was a paedo) Knew about the makeup looks (which weren't typically feminine makeup- I suppose some emo guys etc wore 'guyliner- this might be linked to them being gender non-conforming.) Didn't know he wore dresses/skirts.

OP posts:
Clymene · 21/10/2020 18:18

@DidoLamenting

I'm not quite sure why you are all so puzzled by the question. It seemed obvious that OP was asking whether you deliberately avoid anything which is obviously socially or conventionally considered "women's clothes" or "men's clothes"

I would not be seen dead in anything which was bought from the men's wear section or if bought from the women's section would not raise any eyebrows if worn by a man.

I don't own trousers, jeans, sweatshirts, t-shirts , hoodies , or trainers or anything unisex or any clothing with logos or words on it. I find masculine styled/ unisex clothing deeply unattractive.

You don't own any trousers? Shock
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 21/10/2020 18:20

Surely clothing is only gendered if you wear it because you feel you have to. If a women wears a dress because she likes wearing dresses that’s fine: if a dress code required women to wear dresses then that would not be fine.
The issue isn’t the clothing it’s the motivation and the values driving the action.
I can’t remember the last time I wore a skirt but I wouldn’t care if a woman liked wearing skirts nor if a man liked them. I would care if a woman felt she had to wear a skirt to be seen as professional etc.

hellotoday27 · 21/10/2020 18:28

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Surely clothing is only gendered if you wear it because you feel you have to. If a women wears a dress because she likes wearing dresses that’s fine: if a dress code required women to wear dresses then that would not be fine. The issue isn’t the clothing it’s the motivation and the values driving the action. I can’t remember the last time I wore a skirt but I wouldn’t care if a woman liked wearing skirts nor if a man liked them. I would care if a woman felt she had to wear a skirt to be seen as professional etc.
This. You're overthinking the whole thing.
hellotoday27 · 21/10/2020 18:29

Just to note the over thinking comment was directed at the OP

LouiseBelchersBunnyEars · 21/10/2020 18:33

@DidoLamenting

Is it really that If i was the op and this was my question is specify the items of clothing i was referring to. Can i ask youDidoto give some examples of clothes which are not conventionally gendered? I thought I'd replied in that sense

Even with your correction I don't understand your question. Why are you asking for examples of clothes which are "not conventionally gendered"

The point the OP was making is the other way round. For example if the choice was jeans or a jumper with floral embroidery in or absolutely plain jeans or jumper would you deliberately avoid the embroidered garment?

(And don't try arguing "but both are suitable for either sex" you (general you) know perfectly well that's not how the world / marketing works)

I think you’re the one missing the point. The OP wasn’t talking about the cut of trousers, or any embroidery on jeans. It’s just wearing jeans in and of themselves. She literally said she never wears trousers, or anything that doesn’t go in at the waist. So op literally only ever wears skirts and dresses which go in at the waist. Nothing to do with cut or detail of jeans etc.
Dozer · 21/10/2020 18:36

Eh, OP?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/10/2020 18:46

@Fatted

I'm also confused by the term gender free. I work with a female colleague who considers herself to dress 'gender free'. I wear a lot of vintage style dresses, particularly to work. She told me once I would be taken more seriously by men in the work place if I dressed gender free (read 'like a man'). She completely missed the fact that I should be taken seriously regardless of what I look like.
YES!!!!!!! This hits the nail on the head.
DeaconBoo · 21/10/2020 19:14

so you disagree that saying something is a "good example" bears no moral judgement?

I'm wondering why feminists feel the need to reference Bowie as an example of a man who wears make up / is "gender-non-conforming"

Are such men in such short supply you (general you) have to scrape the barrel to include him?

Ok, but, again, do you disagree that saying something is a "good example" bears no moral judgement? You responded to my post pointing out that you'd inferred the wrong meaning of the word 'good' by saying "Do carry on defending that unfortunate choice." I'm just trying to ascertain what specifically it is you meant by this response and whether some of your opinion is down to inferring one meaning of a word in a commonly used phrase when in fact a different meaning was intended.

My question wasn't about what "feminists feel the need to do", it was about clarifying language.

TheGreatWave · 21/10/2020 19:20

I honestly don't put that much thought into clothes, and I hate shoe shopping with a passion. My clothes today are very woman-y, trousers to fit my little legs, a flowery top that fits my big boobs and a cardigan. They are comfortable and reasonably smart for work (I don't need business dress but I prefer to be a little smart)

That is pretty much as far as it goes - do I like it? Is it right for the situation? I rarely wear skirts (don't like my thighs rubbing together, and hate shoes) I would say my wardrobe is basic, consisting mainly of jeans and t-shirts. There is perhaps a divide between my work tops (both the smarter with tailored trousers and ones I wear with jeans) and non work ones - the former featuring floral patterns and/or feminine styles / cuts, whilst my everyday ones tend to be plain or simple patterns.

DidoLamenting · 21/10/2020 19:26

You don't own any trousers?

No- why should I ?

DidoLamenting · 21/10/2020 19:30

@DeaconBoo

*so you disagree that saying something is a "good example" bears no moral judgement?*

I'm wondering why feminists feel the need to reference Bowie as an example of a man who wears make up / is "gender-non-conforming"

Are such men in such short supply you (general you) have to scrape the barrel to include him?

Ok, but, again, do you disagree that saying something is a "good example" bears no moral judgement? You responded to my post pointing out that you'd inferred the wrong meaning of the word 'good' by saying "Do carry on defending that unfortunate choice." I'm just trying to ascertain what specifically it is you meant by this response and whether some of your opinion is down to inferring one meaning of a word in a commonly used phrase when in fact a different meaning was intended.

My question wasn't about what "feminists feel the need to do", it was about clarifying language.

I have already explained it. If Bowie is merely a "good example of men wearing make up" why don't you include Gary Glitter in that list? I find it a bit sad and desperate the way some feminists will always trot out Bowie in these discussions.

Your also now saying things I didn't say so there's little point in "clarifying language".

AmandaHoldensLips · 21/10/2020 19:34

I had fun back in the 80s doing the whole Annie Lennox androgynous thing while some of the blokes went full-on Steve Strange make-up and "Fade To Grey" dance moves.

Funny what goes around comes around, eh?

Oh what larks we had.

acatcalledjohn · 21/10/2020 19:49

Pretending that's not the case does not gain you woke points

Woke? You're having a laugh! Lots of feminine clothing doesn't fit me properly because I am too tall/the wrong shape. Fuck me, I am not blessed in the nork department but despite that fitted blouses from ladies my departments gape beyond belief. I only ever buy loose cut blouses for that very reason.

I have a mix of clothing styles. Sometimes I mix them up, other times I don't. It's not a conscious decision at all, I just wear what I fancy wearing without the "ooh, I feel feminine or masculine today" or "must be less gendered".

FWIW I hate embroidery/studs/bling on jeans, but I do appreciate a nice floral top or dress. I pick what I like, not what society thinks I should wear. I don't pigeonhole myself on the gender spectrum either. Because who cares?

BolloxtoGender · 21/10/2020 19:56

I don’t dress femininely most of the time. Off work - jumpers and jeans, trainers and sometimes heels, but Yanis Marshall works those killer heels Spectacularly as a man dancing in heels 👠, so I guess heels are feminine but becoming less so.

My Work blouses are From Women’s shops (jigsaw, whistles) but not particularly feminine in style.

I work in engineering, male dominated.

So yes, pretty gender free. But I just do my thing and don’t over think the masculine vs feminine thing too much.

Bluntness100 · 21/10/2020 21:40

@DidoLamenting

You don't own any trousers?

No- why should I ?

You shouldn’t. There are no rules.

Out of curiosity is it cultural, religious, have physical issues, or are you post retirement age Ie quite elderly ? It’s very unusual if you’re not in one of those groups to not own trousers as a woman these days.

SoulofanAggron · 21/10/2020 21:50

You don't own any trousers?

@Clymene Not really. I have one pair of black stretchy jeans from Primark I bought a couple of years ago when I lost a lot of weight and wanted to see if I could recreate my 90s look or something or as kind of a midlife crisis, or because I was intrigued that they were so mainstream nowadays, but I only wore them about twice. They weren't particularly comfortable.

if a dress code required women to wear dresses then that would not be fine

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude I think there still is in a way. At least to look nice and do some of the stuff. Most women do something. What a shame I'll have to depilate my chin and mustache for the rest of my life. Some women grow their beard etc but I'm not that brave.

I feel self-conscious and ugly if I'm wearing something shapeless etc. Suppose some of it is like a PP said, I was bullied a lot and weight was one of the few things I wasn't bullied for. So if I'm not wearing something that's fitted I feel I might be a target. It's an aspect of social anxiety.

Like a friend said, she feels like she 'looks ill' if she doesn't wear makeup. If we all gave up all these things then none of us would feel we have to do them.

I can’t remember the last time I wore a skirt but I wouldn’t care if a woman liked wearing skirts nor if a man liked them. I would care if a woman felt she had to wear a skirt to be seen as professional etc.

I don't mind if people choose to wear them. It's not a criticism. But of course some women are doing it because they feel they have to look professional, or try and look 'attractive' where conventionally attractive has certain requirements most of us don't naturally have, not even the Kardashians etc. And it all has a cost in money, time, maybe some psychological cost.

Maybe you lot are exemplary, but I'm not the only woman that feels this way.

She completely missed the fact that I should be taken seriously regardless of what I look like.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Of course we should, but we aren't, at least not everywhere at all times. I bet even your colleague's 'masculine' style of dress or appearance had some extras like different shoes etc.

The idea is that if we all opted out of all of it, none of us would have to do any of it, and the more women who opt out the easier it is for everyone else.

Gender is what we're socialised into.
^You really don't want to know what I was "socialised into" OP.
If I were to fully embrace my initial neuro-programming, my pronouns would be it/it/its. Fuck that shit, I'd say?^

@Kaiserin Sorry, I should've mentioned this. Socialization, as I'm sure you know, isn't just from our family or whatever, but from society, the media, peers, etc etc. Your ideas for what you wear etc come from somewhere of course- you didn't invent the poncho and wear a home made one at all times.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 21/10/2020 21:53

Out of curiosity is it cultural, religious, have physical issues, or are you post retirement age Ie quite elderly ? It’s very unusual if you’re not in one of those groups to not own trousers as a woman these days.

I'd have thought it was quite unusual nowadays for post retirement age women not to own any trousers.

DidoLamenting · 21/10/2020 22:02

Out of curiosity is it cultural, religious, have physical issues, or are you post retirement age Ie quite elderly ? It’s very unusual if you’re not in one of those groups to not own trousers as a woman these days.

I'd have thought it was quite unusual nowadays for post retirement age women not to own any trousers

I'm not in any of those groups (but I'm impressed by the ageist and ableist assumptions)

I think trousers look hideous on most women and jeans are the most boring item of clothing on the planet. What surprises me is why anyone picks such a dull, ubiquitous and on most people unflattering garment.

Gosh some of you really do have difficulties imagining anyone being different don't you?

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