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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do any of you dress etc 'gender free' or have tried to in the past?

353 replies

SoulofanAggron · 21/10/2020 12:23

I'm going a bit more 'gender free' in my look. Did try it once years ago for a couple of years. Have any of you tried it/done it?

I know a lot of women have quite a 'gender free' look anyway.

OP posts:
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rewild · 21/10/2020 16:38

I've got long braided hair but men's comfy clothes on, am I gender free?!

ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes · 21/10/2020 16:39

I think what OP might be getting at, is asking women if they’re dialling down the ‘femininity’ of their appearance. Which lets face it, or culture tries to shoehorn us in to.

It’s nothing to do with being a good feminist or not.

Ideally from my point of view ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ as concepts would die out, like racial stereotypes. But as it is, second best is if they were no longer expected of us based on our biological sex

rewild · 21/10/2020 16:39

...actually I think I'm just a comfortable female

Cailleach1 · 21/10/2020 16:41

What WitchFinders? Shaving hair from legs is gender thing! Ah so, the men who are professional cyclists engage regularly in gender non-conforming practices then.

Aerodynamics, cuts and wounds being easier to treat and lending to better conditions for massage are some reasons cited.

www.bicycling.com/culture/a27022380/how-to-shave-your-legs/

Bluntness100 · 21/10/2020 16:42

But those really aren't the only kinds of clothes which are 'gendered

No of course not, I only refer to them as that’s what the op posted an image of. Of course you get frills and boob tubes and bell sleeves or whatever. There are plenty of gendered clothing.

However I disagree on the rest of your comments, because for the majority of clothes it’s cut for your sex, not your gender. It is cut for a body shape, slimmer arms, wider hips, smaller waist, boobs, men ans women’s clothes are predominantly cut very different. This doesn’t make them gendered. That’s about the physical difference between men and women.

KihoBebiluPute · 21/10/2020 16:44

I would love to dress gender-free but unfortunately my body shape comes with relatively sizeable breasts and the shops that sell clothes that I can afford only sell quite gendered clothing (ie tops that fit me are generally very flowery and frilly). More gender neutral clothing is generally entirely the wrong shape as if it is big enough across the chest it is uncomfortably baggy elsewhere.

SoulofanAggron · 21/10/2020 16:47

This would only make sense if you were doing something ground breaking. Most women already dress in trousers, jeans, jogging bottoms etc.

@Bluntness100 Some do, some don't. Most women do some of the extra stuff, hair removal, makeup, whatever, that guys don't have the same amont of pressure to do.

Choosing to wear skirts/dresses vs trousers is a personal choice

@Winesalot None of our choices are made in a vaccum, they are all due to various factors.

^Why would you being less feminine encourage others to do the same, when Clearly your mums choices didn’t encourage you to do so.
Sounds to me a bit like maybe you were embarrassed by your mums so called ‘masculinity’ and tried to compensate for it in yourself.^

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars I don't know if I was embarrassed, but it wasn't the sort of woman that I wanted to be at the time, when it comes to the clothes I didn't think it looked 'pretty.' I think a lot of people, especially in their teens, define themselves in opposition to their parents/make their own identity that way, based on what they don't want to be party (I don't know if I'm expressing that well.) As I've got older I've realized how awesome my mum is even more though.

What is ' dressing gender-free'?

@Palavah Not doing the extra stuff that men have to do, or indicating with one's clothes something like submission, sweetness, femininity (socially fostered sex roles, not femaleness.)

If there's anything you wear now which you feel actually contributes to women's oppression / objectification etc then by all means stop it. Maybe for you it's akin to not wearing fur, or only buying ethically sourced fabrics?

@ErrolTheDragon That's a good way of putting it. The personal is political and what we personally do in whatever way does have an effect.

And I too think you need to address your own misconceptions of gender defining clothes if you talk about your mother wearing 'masculine' clothes.

@Wines- Exactly.

Wear what you want. Support other women by supporting their freedom to do likewise.

So liberal feminism would say. Of course other women can wear what they want, it isn't without external influence though, a bit like women don't usually entirely 'choose' sex work. (I'm not saying the two are similar obviously, just that all our choices are based on something.)

We are already liberated. And have been for decades.

If you felt that about everything, unless you've just happened to land on this thread, you wouldn't be on the Women's Rights board because you'd think we already had all the rights we needed and liberation.

Most women don't dress as 'girly' as me maybe, but almost all of us do some beauty practices etc.

^Are only trousers acceptable then, do you think? I love dresses, because there is nothing digging around my waist, and they suit my figure.

I feel that my opinions are I my head anyway, and don't need to wear them on my body

@firesong It's just part of in theory trying to implement one's politics in every sphere of life. I'm not much of an activist or don't do much IRL though maybe, but arguably we all 'should' in some way, even if it's just signing petitions or donating or something.

Trousers- well I suppose it would be. Or dungarees or something. Grin I have some pyjama trousers (I'm not normally a pyjama person) which could pass as normal trousers. They're really comfy. So might try something like that.

I am a gender free campaigning for climate awareness* bear.

@MindTheMinotaur Lol! Maybe you should start a movement. Smile

I find masculine styled/ unisex clothing deeply unattractive.

@DidoLamenting I had thought so too, but am now trying to develop a relatively 'gender free' way of dressing that I can live with.

Yes, I make myself look more ‘feminine’ currently as I’m on the lookout for a husband/long term partner. Once in an established relationship I’ll probably wear less makeup and have my hair shorter (still long, but not as long)

I'mEating - Grin Yes, some clothes etc are, in theory at least, designed to signal heterosexuality (I don't know how to put it without it sounding wrong- I know people will say they're wearing what they want, but everything has a meaning.) Leaving these modes of dressing is a way of letting men know we're not interested (not that that puts some of them off unfortunately.)

I probably won’t go as far as androgynous as I’d be afraid of being criticised for not being conventionally attractive (I had a lot of that sort of bullying at school, plus I’m quite sensitive)

I think that's part of why I dress feminine, because I was bullied for all sorts of things and wanted some stuff I wasn't bullied for. I developed eating disorder symptoms in my teens partly for the same reason.

Agree with pps that it was excellent in the early 90s when our clothes were often interchangeable with the boys

My look was quite feminine in the 90s. Indie skirts, ripped tights. Body tops. Then I was into a goth look. (Though I didn't like the music. I did wear boots though. More recently I got into a Mary Jane shoe, like Courtney Love in the 'Kinderwh*re' phase. (Ugh at the concept now!)

I love the idea of ‘trying to’ but not quite managing it and ending up dressing up as a lady instead!

@WellThisIsShit I even will need a shoulder bag, as I carry my bag in a 'girly' way. Grin Need a bag for all the phones for Pokemon. By 'trying' I also meant maybe I won't keep it up for long.

I don’t use my clothing to signal my gender because I don’t believe in gender.

@CoffeeTeaChocolate They arguably signal gender (well, clothes are gendered) whether that is your intent or not. A dress is a 'woman's outfit' i.e. wearing it is part of a sex role. It arguably, according to Sheila Jeffreys, also signals 'ease of access' for the male sex right.

Still catching up but posting this in case I somehow lose all I've written. Smile

OP posts:
lazylinguist · 21/10/2020 16:55

However I disagree on the rest of your comments, because for the majority of clothes it’s cut for your sex, not your gender.

But I didn't disagree that they are cut for the female body shape. That doesn't mean they don't also have design characteristics aimed at a feminine aesthetic. What I was trying to say was that even with clothes like jeans, the style design is often visibly aimed at women, not just the body-shape aspect of the cut.

Cailleach1 · 21/10/2020 16:56

@rewild

I've got long braided hair but men's comfy clothes on, am I gender free?!
Well, it depends if you are the person on the left of the picture below or the person on the right of the picture below. However, I'm sure the person who isn't a man could say, they're not men's clothes.

www.instagram.com/p/Bh3WCTwH1UD/?utm_source=ig_embed

from this website, the Dutch have a thing..

www.thebestsocial.media/nl/deze-anwb-stelletjes-gaan-samen-de-zomer-in/

Bluntness100 · 21/10/2020 17:03

@Bluntness100 Some do, some don't. Most women do some of the extra stuff, hair removal, makeup, whatever, that guys don't have the same amont of pressure to do

Ok that’s widening it because you were posting about clothes before. And men do just as much hair removal now, from face shaving to body shaving, particularly in the younger generation. Sure rhey don’t wear make up typically but hair dying, hair removal, aftershave, skin care, all this extra stuff is quite common in men now. And women not shaving, not dying their hair is also common.

Cailleach1 · 21/10/2020 17:04

Are dungarees of a gender? When I was pregnant, dungarees were my uniform. They are pregnancy clothing, bought at a maternity clothing shop.

Me and old gender non-conforming Grandpa Walton both.

DidoLamenting · 21/10/2020 17:05

@lazylinguist

This is so sad, after decades of feminism its still seen as daring to wear jeans.

Nobody thinks it's daring for women to wear jeans.

Daring? Jeans are the most , dull ubiquitous garment I can think of.
DidoLamenting · 21/10/2020 17:08

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OperationallySound · 21/10/2020 17:26

Oh FFS, I'm talking about make up and gender free clothing, not lauding a child abuser.

DidoLamenting · 21/10/2020 17:27

@lazylinguist

The typically female gendered stuff like big pink skirts or Mary Janes.

But those really aren't the only kinds of clothes which are 'gendered'. If you walk into a girls' or women's clothes shop/department, it isn't all divided into blousy pink frilly stuff and Mary Janes and then the rest indistinguishable from the men's clothes except for hip and boob allowance, is it? Everything from the colour palette to the collar shape on shirts, the sleeve style, the type of buttons, any logos, patterns or embellishments usually recognisably marks the garments as women's clothes.

Yes we wear hoodies, tracksuit bottoms, trainers etc, and yes we can wear men's ones and some are designed to be unisex. But the majority of even the type of women's clothes which have no need to be gendered are gendered.

You are correct there. The detail on hoodies, tracksuit bottoms, trainers etc, in the women's section will not be the same as that on the same items in the men's section.
DidoLamenting · 21/10/2020 17:30

@OperationallySound

Oh FFS, I'm talking about make up and gender free clothing, not lauding a child abuser.
You were presenting him as some sort of "good example". You might like to think twice before doing so.
DeaconBoo · 21/10/2020 17:30

"Being a good example of something" implies being a suitable example, not a morally good one. You absolutely know that.

Bluntness100 · 21/10/2020 17:32

The op presents like she thinks it’s daring and pioneering to wear jeans, that’d what the poster was referring to. Why do some folks know these things and twist it. Confused .

OperationallySound · 21/10/2020 17:35

@DeaconBoo

"Being a good example of something" implies being a suitable example, not a morally good one. You absolutely know that.
Exactly. Thank you DeaconBoo
HighNetGirth · 21/10/2020 17:36

I suppose I have to say no, because the only truly gender-free clothing I can think of is a onesie, and I don't want to be stepping out in one of those.

DidoLamenting · 21/10/2020 17:36

@DeaconBoo

"Being a good example of something" implies being a suitable example, not a morally good one. You absolutely know that.
Do carry on defending that unfortunate choice. The number of times I've seen Bowie lauded on here as being "gender-non-conforming" is depressing. His actions are about as sickeningly "gender-conforming" as you could get.

Is he really amongst the best examples you (general you) can come up with.

As for your point about "suitable" I don't think he is a "suitable" example. Gary Glitter wore eye- make up- is he a "suitable " example too?

Frequentcarpetflyer · 21/10/2020 17:37

Not so long ago farmers wore large smocked embroidered shirts and t-bar shoes. Not something most men would wear now! What's considered male and female clothimg does change with time.

T bar shoes were standard for toddler boys and girls only 20 years ago.

DeaconBoo · 21/10/2020 17:39

so you disagree that saying something is a "good example" bears no moral judgement?

FWRLurker · 21/10/2020 17:40

Re: OP I admit that I have stopped wearing makeup at work which I did for a brief 4 year period when I First started my current job. I am doing it partly because I Think it’s helpful for other women (my students) to see that not every woman wears makeup.

Cailleach1 · 21/10/2020 17:40

@DeaconBoo

"Being a good example of something" implies being a suitable example, not a morally good one. You absolutely know that.
I think people are going out of their way to be disingenuous.

Concept is being muddled with conception.