Jk Rowling and trans issues... talk to me!

[bunters]

Ok mumsnet, please talk to me. I’ve noticed that the feminist section of mumsnet seems disproportionately preoccupied with trans issues and I’d like to understand it. I opened the feminism chat today and topic after topic related to trans this, gender that

It is an indisputable fact that women suffer horrific domestic violence in this country (and worldwide), at the hands of men. Women are regularly beaten, raped, controlled, murdered and otherwise abused by men every single day. It’s so standard that it barely makes news when it happens, unless the crime is truly shocking.

This whole trans hysteria feels to me like if the government were to start a huge campaign to raise awareness of the dangers of choking on peanuts, while ignoring the huge damage caused by alcohol and tobacco.

JK Rowling has started a bizarre war around the language used to refer women, in the name of women’s rights. With her money and popularity she could have done any number of things to help women in a huge way. What has this achieved, other than pitting feminists against each other? Even if you believe she has a point, surely you can see that whatever ‘danger’ trans people pose to women is minuscule compared to the very real danger men openly pose to women every day?

We all know that men have felt entitled to take what they want when they want for centuries, and they don’t need to dress as a woman to do it. The women gang raped to death (can you even imagine the horror) in India weren’t attacked by men in dresses. I’m despairing of the fact that attention has been diverted from these horrors in such an extreme way.

When I look at my beautiful, tiny daughter I don’t worry about some trans person hurting her, I worry about the very likely situation when a man hurts her. In fact, I’d worry more that she’ll be trans and be hurt by someone before I’d worry about a trans person hurting her. When I walk alone at night somewhere, my mind isn’t imagining trans people waiting in dark doorways to rape me, it’s men. Men being bloody men.

If we accept that men don’t need to be trans and gain access to women’s spaces to hurt us, and we accept that trans people are way more likely to attempt suicide than the rest of the population (and so really are in need of help and protection as much as women), why do trans issues continue to cause such anger?

And if you do feel justified, what tangible thing are you doing to help women, besides moaning on mumsnet and signing petitions?

Littlebillies post sheds some light here.

Someone said that they have to adapt their speech to avoid stating the truth. We all seem to have to lie now and engage in 'Pravda' speak. In my own case, I have to be dishonest and to engage in forced speech and what I regard as a big fat lie and denying my own beliefs, pretend there are some men who are not men. Just because they say they are not men. I have to lay biological truth, honesty and Integrity aside. Dissembling and purporting falsehoods are the values which have been promoted and forcibly accepted in our time. In law and in society.

Am I allowed to give my truth? Am I allowed to state that I personally never, ever regard a biological male to be anything other than that, irrespective of how they identify? Am I allowed to state that there would be no distinction in my mind between one biological male and another biological male as to what sex they are?

I personally marvel at how impressionable some people are and how they collude in the fallacy that gender (which is not real) is a fact, and the denial of biology (which is an independent, objective fact) as not real. And, ignore what I personally regard as all the disbenefits to women emanating from that transposition.

I completely agree with you, OP.

And I have read many of the threads on here. Half of the comments get deleted because of blatant transphobia.

Look back through history and you'll see a group of people making very similar arguments with a similar level of obsession, whilst simultaneously ignoring or talking way less about more pressing issues: the homophobes.

Sadly people don't like change, don't like to accept those with a completely different outlook on life. Just like there were people who refused to accept others could be gay, there are those who refuse to accept people can be trans. They cannot imagine it as it so beyond their own experience that they will go to any length to deny their very valid but different life experience.

If you've met trans people, you know they pose zero risk to anyone else. And those that do are a minority, just like there are Catholics who rape children, or Muslims who commit crimes, etc. You know the story. Marginalised groups get painted in the same light by those who dislike 'different'.

This thread was brought to you by the "I'm alright Jack" school of faux-feminism.

Quite.

@littlebillie

Bit of attention seeking here

You are always commenting and are being frankly patronising or seeking attention, see below from August

"I'm straight, white, slim, educated, and able bodied. I've never been sexually abused, or exploited, or experienced overt sexism at work. I've never been a teenage mum. I've never been a refugee. I've I have no idea what it's like to be a woman who is not me, as much as I try to read and educate myself. But nobody tries to tell me I'm less of a woman because I haven't experienced a wide range of diversity 🤷🏻‍♀️

Tbh I've never even met a trans person (that I know of). It seems a bit bonkers to me that everyone has their knickers in a twist over a tiny portion of society that, imo, need love and protection. I have heard of some trans women fetishising aspects of living as a woman. Perhaps there could be a conversation about how that's offensive without complexly demonising them, same way white people are pulled up for appropriating other cultures?"

No empathy for the more vulnerable members of her own sex, but falling over herself to please the men who despise her. I can smell her misogyny from here.

drive by woke scolding😂

Let’s say that you’re genuine, OP, and you’re motivated by a desire to be kind, and it’s not just an urge to scold that brings you here.

I want to be kind, too.

I want to be kind to gender non conforming young boys who love sparkle and dresses and dolls tea parties, and for them to be left alone to reach their full adult potential, whatever that may be, rather than being medicated, subjected to surgery and potentially robbed of their fertility and sexual function before they even know what it is.

I want to be kind to teenage girls who are autistic, or who have been sexually abused, or who are lesbians, and for the adults around them to be able to truly help them come to terms with their bodies and their places in this misogynistic world, rather than just blithely encouraging them to irrevocably drug the,selves and remove their breasts.

I want to be kind to the trans widows and the children and relatives of late transitioners whose worlds get blown apart and who never get to tell their stories, because their narratives are lost or discredited in favour of the spouse, parent or sibling.

I want to be kind to the girls and women who are losing their places and medals and opportunities in sport (at ALL levels), because they can never outtrain and out perform male born bodies.

I want to be kind to women in prison, who are being locked up with male bodies, with penises, who are being sexually assaulted and intimidated, and who aren’t allowed to object.

I want to be kind to all these people, but the more people like you, OP, insist that any dissent from the narrative is bigoted, or transphobic, or unacceptable, the less I’m actually able to do that.

bunters have you even seen the abhorrent abuse JK suffered on twitter? Post after post from transwomen telling her to choke on their lady dicks! Posts from transwomen featuring baseball bats wound with barbed wire they'd like to rape her with. Has anyone ever seen a post from a woman threatening anyone with their vulva or vagina? Rape threats and sexual abuse are predominantly the preserve of men, and many self-identified transwomen seem to retain that characteristic.
Are you equally concerned about the references to men as "people with prostates, penises, testes or who ejaculate"? Oh no because none of these terms are used in men's literature about health or other male concerns. Men get to keep the word even if it does exclude transmen, whereas women have to be referred to by bodily functions so as not to offend.

Gosh it seems like some kind of bat signal has gone out! Colour me shocked!

But I don't find these examples to be in alignment with most people's interests. Most of us aren't profession sportspeople or in prison, and while I appreciate you can show concern for things that don't concern you, it's not my experience of the great British public.

Your first post literally argues we should show concern for things that don't concern us, in the form of the trans demographic.

You are trying to leverage my compassion to suit your priorities, and then trying to tell me that compassion is hypocritical when I have compassion for groups you don't? Um, no. Not flying with me.

1), I'm an amateur, which means it does affect me and I have tremendous amounts of empathy for the professionals this will really impact.

2. I have no words. Just no words. I have never been to prison, but I know and care about women who have. I have some grasp of the complex abusive backgrounds that set them on the path to prison and I am nauseated to think that any of them might have been locked in with a convicted rapist if they were serving their sentence today.

I suggest you deal with your classist bigotry. The welfare of women (and men) in prison matters, and if you place less value on it than me, it says more about you than it does me. Don't you dare cover up your lack of compassion for female prisoners by calling other people transphobic.

Your post honestly sickens me.

@SophocIestheFox

drive by woke scolding😂

Let’s say that you’re genuine, OP, and you’re motivated by a desire to be kind, and it’s not just an urge to scold that brings you here.

I want to be kind, too.

I want to be kind to gender non conforming young boys who love sparkle and dresses and dolls tea parties, and for them to be left alone to reach their full adult potential, whatever that may be, rather than being medicated, subjected to surgery and potentially robbed of their fertility and sexual function before they even know what it is.

I want to be kind to teenage girls who are autistic, or who have been sexually abused, or who are lesbians, and for the adults around them to be able to truly help them come to terms with their bodies and their places in this misogynistic world, rather than just blithely encouraging them to irrevocably drug the,selves and remove their breasts.

I want to be kind to the trans widows and the children and relatives of late transitioners whose worlds get blown apart and who never get to tell their stories, because their narratives are lost or discredited in favour of the spouse, parent or sibling.

I want to be kind to the girls and women who are losing their places and medals and opportunities in sport (at ALL levels), because they can never outtrain and out perform male born bodies.

I want to be kind to women in prison, who are being locked up with male bodies, with penises, who are being sexually assaulted and intimidated, and who aren’t allowed to object.

I want to be kind to all these people, but the more people like you, OP, insist that any dissent from the narrative is bigoted, or transphobic, or unacceptable, the less I’m actually able to do that.

Hear hear!

@Dogsareus

I completely agree with you, OP.

And I have read many of the threads on here. Half of the comments get deleted because of blatant transphobia.

Look back through history and you'll see a group of people making very similar arguments with a similar level of obsession, whilst simultaneously ignoring or talking way less about more pressing issues: the homophobes.

Sadly people don't like change, don't like to accept those with a completely different outlook on life. Just like there were people who refused to accept others could be gay, there are those who refuse to accept people can be trans. They cannot imagine it as it so beyond their own experience that they will go to any length to deny their very valid but different life experience.

If you've met trans people, you know they pose zero risk to anyone else. And those that do are a minority, just like there are Catholics who rape children, or Muslims who commit crimes, etc. You know the story. Marginalised groups get painted in the same light by those who dislike 'different'.

Trans people pose zero risk? Is that right? Why then was one of Karen White's victims so viciously raped and so badly injured she may never now carry a child to term? Why did Maya Forstater lose her job by stating biological truth? Why was Dr Louise Moody tormented and harassed by Stephanie Hayden? Why was Jacinta Brooke's convicted of child abuse? Why did Yaniv try to force poor, immigrant women to touch his genitals? Why did Fallon Fox punch a woman so hard she suffered brain damage? Why has McKinnon stolen sporting opportunities from women? Why has Hannah Mouncey insisted on showering with naked women?

And why the fuck do you think every misogynistic man is pushing this ideology?

"Talk to me! I won't listen and will use terms to label you which you don't accept and misrepresent your views, but talk to me and inform me why you have your wrong beliefs!"

What is the evidence for many trans women trying to take over women's spaces?

The number of TW in women’s jobs and voluntary roles, for a start, eg women’s officer at university or in Labour Party. The former ladies’ pond on Hampstead Heath. All the changing rooms and toilets now used by both sexes. The Scottish tw boasting about getting a job with a women’s refuge after not answering the question about whether they were born female.

But you know all that.

I haven’t got time to play Bullshit Bingo with these messages from the OP and their supporters: TW in women’s spaces are no different from lesbians, tick. “Trans exclusionary language”, tick. Etc etc.
But I think I would have won by now.

You are trying to leverage my compassion to suit your priorities, and then trying to tell me that compassion is hypocritical when I have compassion for groups you don't? Um, no. Not flying with me.

No. It's quite breathtaking really.

Most of us aren't profession sportspeople

It affects sportswomen at all levels.
It affects women's representation in all spheres at all levels.

It's the endless repetition of "just be kind. Beeee kind [but never to women, oh no, not the old fashioned cunty kind of women whore having their spaces taken away and their sports destroyed - they're just nasty witches we forgot to burn and they don't deserve any kindness]".

OP I have two daughters. I do lots of grassroots stuff to protect their future.
I'm a domestic abuse survivor and I'm shocked at your lack of empathy and understanding for JKR on this issue. You seem very dismissive about domestic violence and abuse and it's long term impacts. She is not using a victim card, she shared her story to explain exactly why we need sex segregated spaces. You sound lucky that it wouldn't bother you being in an mixed sex space whilst doing something private like undressing, but that is a big deal to many women so in order to be inclusive to women we need to exclude men.

I'm a very rational, logical person I'm caring and considerate but I can't let my daughter's futures be given away.

If we can't define ourselves we can't protect ourselves.

Given you appear flippant about your baby daughter perhaps being trans in the future I suggest you research social and medical transition in girls. In my opinion it is truly horrifying. Reading detransitioner's stories will give you more insight.

I want a world where my daughters can do anything they want, dress how they like and love who they like (in a consensual way). I don't want social stereotypes to stop them and as much as I respect a person's psychological internal idea of themselves or their personality this should not mean we change the definition of woman.

And as others have said try not to use the language imposed by those who want to erase the definition of woman. We are not non men or non trans or cis we are women.

Women and girls are oppressed due to their sex not their gender identity. A girl cannot claim to be a boy so as to avoid female genital mutilation. A woman cannot claim to be a man to avoid rape.

As am I, Kit. That kind of thing so rarely occurs!

In your post on another thread that a PP posted, OP, you mention what a deeply privileged life you've led. Do you really think it's appropriate for you to be speaking over women who have not on things that are important to them? Perhaps you should listen to other women more than indulging your own clumsy virtue signalling.

I'm a domestic abuse survivor and I'm shocked at your lack of empathy and understanding for JKR on this issue. You seem very dismissive about domestic violence and abuse and it's long term impacts. She is not using a victim card, she shared her story to explain exactly why we need sex segregated spaces. You sound lucky that it wouldn't bother you being in an mixed sex space whilst doing something private like undressing, but that is a big deal to many women so in order to be inclusive to women we need to exclude men.

This. Same here.

@Dogsareus Concerns about erosion of women's rights and risks to children does not compare to homophobia.
Providing equal rights to gay people did not in anyway conflict with the rights or safeguards of others. Prosecuting those who attack people because of their sexuality and condemic homophobic language did not come at a cost others. Legalising gay marriage did not impact on anyone else's rights.

This is about issues such as women being expected to share their spaces with men, and to alter their language in deference to men, even how they refer to themselves and how others refer to them. It's about the fact that phyically healthy children are being (experimenatally) medicalised. It's about lesbians being expected to date men.

The thing is OP. You say that you cannot see it, yet you give 2 examples of where you do see it (refuges and sport). You have been taught from a young age that you should be kind, that women should be compliant and should believe the narrative. This why you are aggressively posting because somewhere you can see the conflict. And once you acknowledge it, you can never unsee the truth.

Half of the comments get deleted because of blatant transphobia

No they don’t

That's us shamed then. Well done.

If you can read all that women have written about the conflicts that are eroding women's rights and come up with your opening post, you perhaps have misunderstood those conflicts.

As a side note, many of us are currently seeing EXACTLY how this push for recognition of gender is playing out with our teenaged daughters.

For your baby daughter's sake, I hope that appropriate treatments for gender dysphoria are recommended if she might need them. And that she finds a more accepting society for our non-conforming girls where they feel that they are trans or NB if they don't fit into the stereotypes being applied to them.