Jk Rowling and trans issues... talk to me!

[bunters]

Ok mumsnet, please talk to me. I’ve noticed that the feminist section of mumsnet seems disproportionately preoccupied with trans issues and I’d like to understand it. I opened the feminism chat today and topic after topic related to trans this, gender that

It is an indisputable fact that women suffer horrific domestic violence in this country (and worldwide), at the hands of men. Women are regularly beaten, raped, controlled, murdered and otherwise abused by men every single day. It’s so standard that it barely makes news when it happens, unless the crime is truly shocking.

This whole trans hysteria feels to me like if the government were to start a huge campaign to raise awareness of the dangers of choking on peanuts, while ignoring the huge damage caused by alcohol and tobacco.

JK Rowling has started a bizarre war around the language used to refer women, in the name of women’s rights. With her money and popularity she could have done any number of things to help women in a huge way. What has this achieved, other than pitting feminists against each other? Even if you believe she has a point, surely you can see that whatever ‘danger’ trans people pose to women is minuscule compared to the very real danger men openly pose to women every day?

We all know that men have felt entitled to take what they want when they want for centuries, and they don’t need to dress as a woman to do it. The women gang raped to death (can you even imagine the horror) in India weren’t attacked by men in dresses. I’m despairing of the fact that attention has been diverted from these horrors in such an extreme way.

When I look at my beautiful, tiny daughter I don’t worry about some trans person hurting her, I worry about the very likely situation when a man hurts her. In fact, I’d worry more that she’ll be trans and be hurt by someone before I’d worry about a trans person hurting her. When I walk alone at night somewhere, my mind isn’t imagining trans people waiting in dark doorways to rape me, it’s men. Men being bloody men.

If we accept that men don’t need to be trans and gain access to women’s spaces to hurt us, and we accept that trans people are way more likely to attempt suicide than the rest of the population (and so really are in need of help and protection as much as women), why do trans issues continue to cause such anger?

And if you do feel justified, what tangible thing are you doing to help women, besides moaning on mumsnet and signing petitions?

[testing987654321]

We know there is no evidence for heaven or hell. Just like there is no evidence to support anyone's assertion that they are "actually"
the opposite sex to their physical sex.

Anyone who believes either of those propositions is doing so as a faith based position.

[testing987654321]

I think the religious people are happy to accept they believe through faith and that there's no proof, otherwise faith wouldn't be needed.

[Malahaha]

@testing987654321

We know there is no evidence for heaven or hell. Just like there is no evidence to support anyone's assertion that they are "actually"
the opposite sex to their physical sex.

Anyone who believes either of those propositions is doing so as a faith based position.

My point is, there is no evidence against heaven and hell either -- there is no evidence either way. It can't be proven or disproven.

But there IS evidence that it is impossible to change sex, regardless of what a person believes.

That's why I think the analogy doesn't work.
Yes, a trans person might believe they are the opposite sex but there is ample proof that they're not.

Religious people accept that there is no proof for their faith.
Trans people don't.

[HBGKC]

Yes, exactly @Malahaha.

"I assume others use 'trans' as a euphemism rather than literally. Or simply because telling the truth is enough to get you banned or censored."

...or because "people who identify as trans" is rather a mouthful - though we should probably make the effort, as otherwise we are relinquishing valuable semantic ground.

Am I allowed to say that it is impossible for a man to trans-form into a woman? (And vice-versa?) But that it is perfectly possible for a man to believe that it is possible? (And vice versa).

That person's beliefs are nothing to do with me. Their beliefs should not have the legal power to force me to use language that I do not wish to, specifically to describe reality in a way which I know to be false.

[Fffffs]

To address the original post- if women as a legal category is opt in self id by merely signing a piece of paper then all women’s right are entirely wiped out in one go.

If we can’t accurately define the demographic of women then we can’t assess how women vote and how are needs are not being represented by parliament. We can’t apply sex based rights protections to anything - we can’t prove sex pay gap or women being passed over for promotion because any company can claim the men id as women. We can’t measure how many women are raped, beaten, harassed and murdered by men anymore as women is now a group that includes men. So we can’t do anything to address male violence against women and girls as we can no longer measure and assess it, we can’t use accurate scientific language to describe our experience at the hands of men because doing so may be transphobic to the female penises raping us. Women can’t access safe spaces away from predatory men as those men can self id as women and take our spaces in shelters and dv services and everywhere else. If we can’t measure what a women is based on accurate biology there is no way to apply any legal rights protections specific to women and the oppression and violence we face each day from men. Making women an opt in category erases us by erasing all women’s rights protections.

Read the UN’s declaration on the rights of women. If women now includes any man who ticks a box on a form there is no way for women to access any of these women’s rights. This is by far the most dangerous threat posed to women, all women, everywhere, and always will be forever to come if self id becomes law.

You simply do not have the right to throw away your daughter and my daughters human rights. Jk is 100% spot on.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Am I allowed to say that it is impossible for a man to trans-form into a woman? (And vice-versa?) But that it is perfectly possible for a man to believe that it is possible? (And vice versa).

That person's beliefs are nothing to do with me. Their beliefs should not have the legal power to force me to use language that I do not wish to, specifically to describe reality in a way which I know to be false.

Exactly.

[Winederlust]

malahaha and hbgkc that's because you can't prove a negative. If someone asserts something the onus is on them to prove it.
As testing says, because there is no proof one way or another re. religion it's based purely on faith. I don't see how that is different to trans ideology.

[Winederlust]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Am I allowed to say that it is impossible for a man to trans-form into a woman? (And vice-versa?) But that it is perfectly possible for a man to believe that it is possible? (And vice versa).

That person's beliefs are nothing to do with me. Their beliefs should not have the legal power to force me to use language that I do not wish to, specifically to describe reality in a way which I know to be false.

Exactly.

Yes. This.

[Malahaha]

@Winederlust

malahaha and hbgkc that's because you can't prove a negative. If someone asserts something the onus is on them to prove it.
As testing says, because there is no proof one way or another re. religion it's based purely on faith. I don't see how that is different to trans ideology.

I just think we should keep analogies strictly logical.
Because we can't prove a negative, there's still a chance it could be true. However much an atheist is convinced there's no God, he/she can't prove it. There might be.

But there's no chance a man can become a woman, or vice-versa.

A better analogy is the flat-earth faith, because there is definite proof that the world is not flat. People who believe the earth is flat can be confronted with the evidence.
Or that the moon is a flat disc in the sky. There is scientific proof that it isn't.

[Malahaha]

But to get back to the OP:
When I look at my beautiful, tiny daughter I don’t worry about some trans person hurting her, I worry about the very likely situation when a man hurts her.

OP: Would you worry when your beautiful daughter turns thirteen, (and we have, in the intervening years, all been nice and allowed transwomen to share our toilets, our changing rooms and our showers so as not to hurt their feelings) and a transwoman who has not had any physical changes done to her at all, turns up in the swimming-pool communal changing room and changes with your daughter?
If your daughter felt uncomfortable at this, would you tell her not to worry, the transwoman is after all a woman, just like the other women in the changing room?

[Malahaha]

I'd better go into more detail re my post above. I'm not saying the transwoman will hurt her, or poses a threat to her in any way. There are other women in the changing room, all very nice women who don't mind changing with a male body because they are kind. The transwoman is also perfectly kind. But she has a penis, and your daughter feels shy about taking off her clothes in front of her.
Would you tell her to do so anyway, so as to be kind?

[Winesalot]

And yet here is Tampax talking about people who bleed!!

twitter.com/tampax/status/1305952342504767491?s=21

So another brand who has resorted to ambiguous communication to avoid hurt feelings. It loses clarity about it purpose with the phrase ‘people who bleed’ as everyone bleeds. So does that mean alternative use for Tampax? Use Tampax instead of a bandaid?

Of course, it is continuing to dehumanize females by reducing them to biological processes. There are far better ways to be inclusive in language by using extra words such as women and transmen, This is exactly what Joanne Rowling tweeted about and months later, there are more and more women pushing back on these companies. Maybe some will get the idea.

[HecatesCats]

It loses clarity about it purpose with the phrase ‘people who bleed’ as everyone bleeds.

'Tripped over and cut your knee? Try Tampax!'. Have I understood them correctly?

[HBGKC]

"Fact: Not all women have periods. Also a fact: Not all people with periods are women."

Fact: many menstruating women will now avoid buying your products, Tampax. Well done.

[testing987654321]

I'm not saying the transwoman will hurt her, or poses a threat to her in any way.

This is it exactly, a man stating they are a woman, then using that statement to go into women's spaces is outrageous. It is harmful because it takes away women's and girl's rights to have spaces to get changed where only other women are.

The man doesn't have to actually do anything beyond go into that space.

As soon as a woman doesn't feel she can ask a man to leave a women's changing room he is doing harm. He's trampling over boundaries to please himself.

That he says he is a woman doesn't change this.